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My Recent Posts · (06/22/08

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I don't recall if this has been discussed or not. If it has just delete this post.

It seems to me that Malachi 1:11 is speaking about Jesus and how the gentiles have accepted him. And that in verse 12 God is no longer accepting your sacrifices (when the temple is in place so that there can be sacrifices).

Malachi 1:11 klv For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [I claim is speaking about Jesus] shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering:[I claim as being Jesus the perfect sacrfice] for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

12 But ye have profaned it [Jews mock Jesus's name], in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted [Jews don't accept the bread and wine symbolism] ; and the fruit thereof, even his meat [Jesus's body], is contemptible.

who else can that be but Jesus - who is the only Jew honored by the gentiles - even so as the Lord. Everything else in the gentile world is anti-semitism, right?.

Okay, that is my argument. I would like to hear your counter.

My Recent Posts · (06/22/08

What makes you think that Jsus was the only Jew ever honored by gentiles? Ever hear of Moses? Josephus? Karl Marx? There are tens of thousands of Jews who have been honored by gentiles.

The table of HaShem has nothing to do with the Xian concept of eating blood and bodies (bread and wine) as you suggest. The table of HaShem refers to the qorban (sacrifices) which the priests ate. This has nothing to do with the last supper concept of comparing wine to blood (as you've been told, drinking blood is forbidden to Jews).

As with so many "proof texts" Jsus is inserted ignoring the surrounding text.

The first chapter of Malachi is about how people bring qorban (sacrifices) but don't MEAN them. In other words they are doing it without repentance, without turning to G-d, etc.

Read line 12 again:

12. But you are profaning it by your saying, "HaShem's table is defiled"; and its expression is "Its food is contemptible."

The truly interesting thing is that Malachai 1:11 clearly states that G-d listens to the prayers of ALL people so it actually proves yet again that non-Jews don't need Jsus.

Malachi is saying that the non-Jews were honoring G-d while the Jews were not. THAT is the message. Note also line 14:

14. And cursed is he who deals craftily; although there is a ram in his flock, he vows and sacrifices a blemished one.

Blemished animals are unacceptable as sacrifices. This destroys the Xian argument that Jsus was a sacrifice. . . Nope, Malachi isn't the only one who tells us that a sacrifice must be without any physical defect or blemish. Read Leviticus 4:3. The GT writes that Jsus was beaten, whipped, and dragged on the ground before being crucified (Matthew 26:67, 27:26, 30-31; Mark 14: 65, 15:15-20; Luke 22: 63; John 18:22, 19:1, 3). Moreover, as a Jew by birth, Jsus was circumcised on the eighth day after being born, a ritual that leaves a scar ("sign of the covenant"). According to the GT, circumcision is tantamount to mutilation (Philippians 3:2, Galatians 5:12).

Some began to spit on him, to blindfold him, and to strike him, saying to him 'Prophesy!' The guards also took him over and beat him." (Mark 14:65)

"And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe. And they platted a crown of thorns and put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand; and they kneeled down before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews! And they spat upon him, and took the reed and struck him on the head." (Matthew 27:28-30)

"Then Pilate therefore took Jsus, and scourged him. And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and arrayed him in a purple garment; and they came unto him, and said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they struck him with their hands." (John 19:1-3)

Only kosher animals (such as a ram) is acceptable (as Malachi states). . . Human sacrifices are strictly forbidden in Torah (e.g., Leviticus18:21, 24-25; Deuteronomy 18:10; Jeremiah 7:31, 19: 5; Ezekiel 23:37, 39). Jsus, as a human (even half-human) was not a fit sacrifice.

By ignoring the "bits" that don't fit Jsus the whole meaning of the text is distorted.

My Recent Posts · (06/22/08

Douggg wrote:
It seems to me that Malachi 1:11 is speaking about Jesus and how the gentiles have accepted him. And that in verse 12 God is no longer accepting your sacrifices (when the temple is in place so that there can be sacrifices).

who else can that be but Jesus - who is the only Jew honored by the gentiles - even so as the Lord. Everything else in the gentile world is anti-semitism, right?.

Okay, that is my argument. I would like to hear your counter.

You really surprise me here with your claim that yeshu is the only Jew honored by Gentiles. Have you ever heard about Albert Einstein or Dr. Jonah Salk? How about Robert Brisco, Lord Mayor of Dublin, Ireland? Did you know that about 40% of the world's Nobel Lauriates are Jews? I could name for you hundreds of Jews who were honored by Gentiles.

OK, now to your other claim. Here, you once again demonstrate that, in order to advance your beliefs, you either choose to ignore or are blind to the context. Malachi 1:11 speaks of "offerings", i.e., sacrifices having been made to G-d by Gentiles. If your man-god yeshu was, as the GT claims, the last and final sacrifice, why would Gentiles offer sacrifices to him?

You have absolutely no idea what is being spoken of in this passage. Malachi 1:6-2:9 is addressed to the kohanim, the priests, not to all the Jews. CONTEXT, Doug, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!!!

UriYosef

My Recent Posts · (06/22/08

who else can that be but Jesus - who is the only Jew honored by the gentiles - even so as the Lord.

Uri already disputed your claim about Jews not being honored by gentiles. And furthermore Christians throughout history have not "honored" but downplayed and ignored Yeshu's supposed Jewishness, so your assertion is flawed on pretty much every front. But really, it comes down to the fact that Malachi is not speaking of Jews honoring a Jew, it is speaking of the Kohanim honoring Hashem Who is neither Jew nor gentile.

My Recent Posts · (06/22/08

Hi, Uri, Sophiee, Netanel,

Gentiles honor no other Jew "as being the Lord" except for Jesus. We don't have the church of Moses, Solomon, Einstein, etc.

Uri -

If your man-god yeshu was, as the GT claims, the last and final sacrifice, why would Gentiles offer sacrifices to him?

Malachi does not say gentiles offering sacrifices "plural" in verse 11 (at least in the kjv) "... and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts." We Christians consider that Jesus is a pure offering.

Verse 12 also says you guys have profaned God's name. To which, I have never heard a Jew profaning God's name...but I have heard and read many a Jew day and night profaning the name of "Jesus".

Where is your proof of Jews profaning God's name on a broad scale? You guys don't even speak it... using "Hashem" instead, right? And certainly don't vocalize the four letter name. I see that as all honor, but the verse says you guys profane it. I don't see any proof of Jews profaning God's name as the verse says....except of my claim that it is talking about the name of Jesus.

Sophiee -

Malachi is saying that the non-Jews were honoring G-d while the Jews were not. THAT is the message.

Yes, that is what I am saying as well. Who else but Jesus is honored in the Gentile world day and night "as the Lord"?

Netanel -

But really, it comes down to the fact that Malachi is not speaking of Jews honoring a Jew, it is speaking of the Kohanim honoring Hashem Who is neither Jew nor gentile.

I agree about honoring Hashem, which underscores my point. If Jews honor Hashem - then who's name do the Jews profane day and night - who, at the same time and directly opposite, is honored and worshiped as the Lord God among the gentiles? Only one answer can fit.

My Recent Posts · (06/22/08

Dougg, Xians are not "honoring G-d" they are worshiping an idol. Perhaps you should read Malachi 1:4 and remember WHO Edom is.

Should Edomsay, "We were poor, but we will return and build the ruins"? So said Hashem of Hosts: They shall build, but I will demolish; and they shall be called the border of wickedness and the people whom HaShem has damned forever.

As Uri pointed out, Malachi is speaking of non-Jews bring QORBAN (sacrifices) to Him. Do Xians do that, Dougg? Of course not, so the hijacking of Malachi 1:11:12 is like the other proof texts -- ripped from context and distorted beyond recognition.

Xians "so called sacrifice" is an abomination to G-d. G-d rejects human sacrifice -- go back and re-read my earlier post. You seem to have missed the most salient points. Xianity has totally distorted Torah as Malachi says:

Malachi 2:8 But you have turned aside from the way. You caused many to stumble in the Torah. You corrupted the covenant of the Levites, said HaShem of Hosts.

The Xian concept of a new, revisionist and replacement covenant is totally discarded by Malachi:

Malachi 3:6 For I, HaShem, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end.

G-d doesn't change. G-d is not a man. And G-d has not deserted Israel. We have not come to an end at the hand of Xians or anyone else. I suggest you read ALL of Malachi, not just skimming it. You might be surprised at what he really says.

My Recent Posts · (06/22/08

Doug -

Malachi does not say gentiles offering sacrifices "plural" in verse 11 (at least in the kjv) "... and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."

Your kjv is, once again, misleading you with its mistranslations. The Hebrew text says it this way:

וּבְכָל-מָקוֹם מֻקְטָר מֻגָּשׁ לִשְׁמִי וּמִנְחָה טְהוֹרָה

And in every place an offering is burnt and offered up to My Name, and a pure oblation

"And in every place" sure sounds like more than one to me. You are really trying to streeeeeeetch out a falsehood to its extreme here.

On a second thought, I guess this is consistent with the trinitarian arithmetic that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. In Doug's arithmetic, 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + ... + 1 = 1, even though "every place" implies more than one place, in fact, many places.

UriYosef

My Recent Posts · (06/22/08

Gentiles honor no other Jew "as being the Lord" except for Jesus. We don't have the church of Moses, Solomon, Einstein, etc.

Malachi 1:11-12 says nothing about gentiles honoring a Jew. This is not six degrees of seperation.

I agree about honoring Hashem, which underscores my point. If Jews honor Hashem - then who's name do the Jews profane day and night - who, at the same time and directly opposite, is honored and worshiped as the Lord God among the gentiles? Only one answer can fit.

Malachi lived and prophecied during the beginning of the Second Temple period, three-to-four centuries prior to the common era. You would be wrong even if Malachi were speaking of some point between 2000-2008 CE, but he is speaking to/of the people of his day. The turmoil that the small number of returnees and the Levites and Kohanim went through is well documented in Haggai, Z'chariyah, Ezra, N'chemiyah as well as Malachi.

As for gentiles putting our G-d at the top of their pantheons, don't think you Christians are unique or originated this practice. The "heathens" were quite liberal in regard to praising other people's gods. Cyrus in the first four verses of Ezra 1, and Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 2:47 - kings of the greatest empires during their respective times - illustrate this. Not so with Jews. Some of the only places in the world you will find purposely destroyed idols in the ancient world are from Jericho and other Canaanite cities which we conquered. Most other peoples showed regard and respect for the gods of the people they conquered.

Malachi does not refer to modern day Christians. It refers to the nations of his time, and to the Levites and Kohanim of his time. You made your attempt and it has been refuted. There is nothing more to discuss, really.

My Recent Posts · (06/23/08

Hi Uri,

וּבְכָל-מָקוֹם מֻקְטָר מֻגָּשׁ לִשְׁמִי וּמִנְחָה טְהוֹרָה

And in every place an offering is burnt and offered up to My Name, and a pure oblation
"And in every place" sure sounds like more than one to me. You are really trying to streeeeeeetch out a falsehood to its extreme here.

Every place just means around the world, IMO.

In the gentile nations around the world there are no brazen altars for gentiles to make sacrifices like the Jews. We have never had a basis to make such sacrifices. The only religion on a global scale that offers a sacrfice - that ties to the ot- is Christianity. God of the ot is honored among Christians (I acknowledge that Jews disagree that we are honoring God).

My Recent Posts · (06/23/08

Hi Netanel,

Malachi lived and prophecied during the beginning of the Second Temple period, three-to-four centuries prior to the common era. You would be wrong even if Malachi were speaking of some point between 2000-2008 CE, but he is speaking to/of the people of his day. The turmoil that the small number of returnees and the Levites and Kohanim went through is well documented in Haggai, Z'chariyah, Ezra, N'chemiyah as well as Malachi.

Oh, so the Day of the Lord was back in Malachi's day? Malachi 4:5 kjv Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

All through Malachi, including 8 times in Chapter 1, God is referred to as the "Lord of Hosts". To me, that associates the prophecies in Malachi with a time of Judgment and the Day of the Lord with the end times. And the sacrifices that the Jews will bring to the rebuilt temple as being not acceptable..while the acceptable sacrifice has been proclaimed by the gentile nations to the glory of God. Although I don't argue that parts of Malachi would apply to former times spanning many generations.

As for gentiles putting our G-d at the top of their pantheons, don't think you Christians are unique or originated this practice. The "heathens" were quite liberal in regard to praising other people's gods. Cyrus in the first four verses of Ezra 1, and Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 2:47 - kings of the greatest empires during their respective times - illustrate this. Not so with Jews

I must be missing something....God is not praising the Jews in Malachi. He is saying that His name is being profaned among the Jews, yet honored among the gentiles.

Out of curiosity, you claim that "gentiles putting our G-d at the top of their pantheons", what are you talking about?

My Recent Posts · (06/23/08

Douggg wrote:
Malachi does not say gentiles offering sacrifices "plural" in verse 11 (at least in the kjv) "... and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."

Nice try, Dougg - why do you leave out the part of the verse that proves you a liar? The WHOLE verse (as it appears in Kng James's Per-Version) reads thus

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

"In every place"? Surely that implies a plurality - the same offering cannot be made in many places!

My Recent Posts · (06/23/08

Oh, so the Day of the Lord was back in Malachi's day? Malachi 4:5 kjv Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

I figured this was about the time when you start going off on vintage Doug rabbit trails to deflect from the sound defeat of your proposal.

1. As the portion you quoted illustrates I said that Malachi prophecied during the beginning of the Second Temple period, not that Malachi's prophecies were all about the Second Temple period.

2. There are only three pereqim in Malachi, and the verse you cited above comes from the third and final one. On the other hand, the verses which you quoted in your origial post, and which we have been discussing appear in the first pereq. Malachi 1 has nothing to do with Elijah.

All through Malachi, including 8 times in Chapter 1, God is referred to as the "Lord of Hosts". To me, that associates the prophecies in Malachi with a time of Judgment and the Day of the Lord with the end times. And the sacrifices that the Jews will bring to the rebuilt temple as being not acceptable..while the acceptable sacrifice has been proclaimed by the gentile nations to the glory of God. Although I don't argue that parts of Malachi would apply to former times spanning many generations.

The words are Hashem Tz'vaot.

Have you ever heard of Tz'va Ha'haganah L'Yisrael? This is the Israel Defense Force.

The word Tz'vaot is the plural form of that same word, Tz'va, and means force(s) or arm(y/ies). This has nothing to do with the end times. When it is used in the first chapter of Malachi it is being conveyed from Hashem thru Malachi to the priests of Malachi's day.

You will find Hashem Tz'vaot also in 1 Samuel 15:2 from Hashem thru His prophet Samuel telling Saul to smite Amaleq. You will find this title in 2 Samuel 6:2, and 18. Then in 2 Samuel 7:8, 26, and 27, and in each of these cases is being spoken by Hashem thru His prophet Nathan to David. In none of these instances does the title regard the end times. Psalm 84 by the Bnei Korah uses this title a number of times, and never as an end times "proof text". There numerous examples throughout the prophets of this title. In some cases it may be when a prophet is prophecising about the future, but by no means is the name an indicator of a specific time.

The first chapter of Malachi is not a prophecy regarding the end times.

I must be missing something....God is not praising the Jews in Malachi. He is saying that His name is being profaned among the Jews, yet honored among the gentiles.

Yes, you are. Malachi 1:6 makes clear who this is directed at as it identifies them outright, and it has nothing to do with cursing or wrongly uttering any name. It has to do with unacceptable treatment of the altar regarding unfit sacrifices, and complaining about the portions they were receiving. It is through Israel that G-d's Name is sanctified and that His Name is feared throughout the nations, and so it is also the case that an unsatisfactory service at His one and only House/Temple is profanation of Him and His Name. It is like a child disrespecting their father in public in front of all of the people that respect and esteem him.

Your initial post has been answered, and shown to be in error. There is really nowhere else to go with this discussion as it involved proselytizing in the first place, and it is only going (to go) downhill further from there. So unless one of the other mods sees a purpose of keeping this thread open I am likely going to close it down in a bit.

My Recent Posts · (06/23/08

Dougg should be careful about quoting from the first chapter of Mal'achi, because in verse 3 the anonymous prophet portrays God as saying וְאֶת עֵשָׂו שָׂנֵאתִי or "I have always hated Ésav" - Ésav who is identified with christianity. So God is effectivel;y saying that He hates christians!