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ChibiBug	Kosher questions	Lead	[-]
Posts: 5 (09/14/08 14:19:23) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None I live in a small town that does not have a kosher market, so every now and then, my family ventures to the city to buy kosher beef. Our Rabbi has a farm in which we can get kosher chicken, goat and sheep..but no beef. I was searching for kosher cookware when google gave me this lovely website on my search and I was hoping to get some insight and some questions answered....this is a very graphic video of a SUPPOSED kosher slaughter house....I am breaking the link LINK DELETED 1.) If this is truly a kosher slaughter house....isn't the blood suppose to be spilled on the ground and buried? 2.) Isn't the animal suppose to be "surprised" so that no fear (adrenaline) courses through the meat? 3.) Is this acceptable for a kosher slaughter? 4.) Is there true kosher slaughtering done in America? I am hoping that this is the lie of an animal rights activist and that it is just a ploy. If it is, then I would think it would be very anti-semitic and wonder if it would do any good to contact the site with my concerns? Thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Last Edited By: RabbiEzriel 09/15/08 02:20:51. Edited 1 time.
Rabbi Daniel		#1	[-]
Posts: 2465 (09/14/08 22:53:58) Moderator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	1. No. Covering the blood is necessary for birds and kosher wild animals like deer. Even though I wasn't the immoral and unethical liar and con-artist who lied my way into the plant with a hidden camera, I would imagine it is a real slaughter house because of that pen/cage. That cage was specifically designed to cradle the animal and turn it over so the neck could be easily slaughtered. Before this they were grabbing the animal by a hind leg and raising it off the ground so 2-3 guys could maneuver it, turning it with its neck to the slaughterer, as best they could. When the technology and design became available to make these cages it was unanimously agreed it would be a better way to handle the animal. And so they're using them. 2. No. 3. Sure! An animal does not have to rendered totally immobile because of the slaughter. Animals have nervous systems which often stay active even after the animal is dead. With the major artery to the brain being severed and blood flow stopped- even draining- no blood flow to the brain means the brain is dead. Negative cerebral flow is indisputable evidence of a dead brain. In other words, the moment the slaughter occurs the animal is brain dead. No feelings, no fears, no regrets, no wishing he spent less time in the office told his wife how much he loved her. And according to Jewish law, as soon as the animal is slaughtered it may be dissected with no fear of ever min hachai- taking a limb from a live animal. Because it isn't. The way non-kosher meat is killed, with a metal rod into the brain, non of the above facts apply. A non-Jew does have to wait for every twitch to subside before dissecting the animal. Because only then do they know the animal is really dead. Regrettably, a metal rod into the head produces far, far less blood and that wouldn't make for a good propaganda video. So they pick on slaughtering. I know Hollywood has programmed us to associate "more blood" with "more suffering." It's just not the reality. 4. Sure. You know how much it would be if it were all imported!?! It is unquestionably animal rights propaganda. I don't think it's anti-semitism because of what I stated above and I think they're too stupid to be anti-Semites. But hey, give a letter a whirl. Remember to use small words. Why does D.C. spend gazillions looking for intelligent life in space? Because all the unintelligent positions have been taken.
Rabbi Daniel		#2	[-]
Posts: 2468 (09/14/08 23:26:34) Moderator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	If you do challenge them on their immoral and unethical conduct of conning their way in, it's best you don't tell them you're from a messianic congregation. You won't have a leg to stand on. [Pun intended.] As a non-Jew it would be-hoove you [I'm bad] to eat vegetarian or kosher so as not to transgress the Noahide law of not eating a limb from a live animal. Why does D.C. spend gazillions looking for intelligent life in space? Because all the unintelligent positions have been taken.
RabbiEzriel		#3	[-]
Posts: 255 (09/15/08 02:42:37) Moderator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I find it interesting that someone who is not Jewish is questioning Kosher slaughter.It is usually people who are totally disinterested who have the strongest desire to question the validity of things that they do not understand. I worked in the meat packing industry for one of the biggest players in North America, with booth Kosher and non-Kosher houses, and to be honest with you, if you really want to see animal suffering, go see a non-kosher slaughter. Not in one of the sanitized tours that they give, but one of the "hidden camera" type videos. The kosher plants were the lowest producers because of the humane treatment that has to be afforded to the animals, 4.) Is there true kosher slaughtering done in America? This shows the secret agenda. Unlike my colleague and friend Rabbi Daniel. , I have seen this post (without the rabbi had a farm part at the beginning) on an anti-Jewish forum a couple of months ago. It is designed to be both anti meant and anti Jewish. In fact, the video is being distributed around Europe, and is fanning yet another wave of anti-Jewish hatred. Nice to be a contributor to hatred isn't it? I deleted the link. It serves no purpose. Rabbi Ezriel Yellin Lecturer, The Virtual Yeshiva www.virtualyeshiva.com RabbiEzriel@gmail.com Rabbi Eleazar said in the name of Rabbi Hanina: The disciples of the sages increase peace throughout the world as it is said "And all your children shall be taught of Hashem, and great shall be the peace of your children." Talmud Bavli Nazir 66b
ChibiBug		#4	[-]
Posts: 6 (09/16/08 23:42:02) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Rabbi Daniel wrote: 1. No. Covering the blood is necessary for birds and kosher wild animals like deer. Even though I wasn't the immoral and unethical liar and con-artist who lied my way into the plant with a hidden camera, I would imagine it is a real slaughter house because of that pen/cage. That cage was specifically designed to cradle the animal and turn it over so the neck could be easily slaughtered. Before this they were grabbing the animal by a hind leg and raising it off the ground so 2-3 guys could maneuver it, turning it with its neck to the slaughterer, as best they could. When the technology and design became available to make these cages it was unanimously agreed it would be a better way to handle the animal. And so they're using them. Thank you for taking time to answer my questions...though I am concerned. I have seen chickens running around with their heads decapitated...but this did not appear to be the involuntary movements of a dead cow. I further read on kosher slaughter and from what I read, there is only suppose to be ONE cut until the animal is dead. There was more than one cut being made on these animals. Apparently this was a PETA video with a very pro-Kosher report but anti "AgriProsessors" who are not adhering to kosher slaughter laws. I do not find the "wild" part being in Torah. Is this Talmudic law in which there is a distinction between wild vs. captive slaughter? This may be the break down in my not understanding what is Orthodox kosher acceptable vs Karaite kosher acceptable. We adhere to scripture only and follow Karaite teaching in our congregation. (aside from the Messiah beliefs of course) RabbiEzriel wrote: I find it interesting that someone who is not Jewish is questioning Kosher slaughter.It is usually people who are totally disinterested who have the strongest desire to question the validity of things that they do not understand. ...snipped... 4.) Is there true kosher slaughtering done in America? This shows the secret agenda. Unlike my colleague and friend Rabbi Daniel. , I have seen this post (without the rabbi had a farm part at the beginning) on an anti-Jewish forum a couple of months ago. It is designed to be both anti meant and anti Jewish. In fact, the video is being distributed around Europe, and is fanning yet another wave of anti-Jewish hatred. Nice to be a contributor to hatred isn't it? I deleted the link. It serves no purpose. You can deny me as Jewish, but you cannot deny me my heritage. I am as much a child of Israel as you are. I have no secret agenda. This is the first time I have ever posted this question..in my own words. I would not belong to nor read an anti-Jewish site...ever. I serve a Hebrew G-d and am far from being anti-Semitic. I am glad you deleted the link...it was horrifying and really, it was for a Rabbi to view and answer alone. I am not quite sure why most of you made this question to be about whether or not my being Messianic makes me a Jew or not. Seems that was discussed more than my questions on Kosher slaughter!!! Last Edited By: Rabbi Daniel 09/23/08 17:12:23. Edited 1 times.
RabbiEzriel		#5	[-]
Posts: 256 (09/17/08 11:38:38) Moderator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I am only going to reply to your comments made to me. The others can choose to respond, or not. I do not find the "wild" part being in Torah. Is this Talmudic law in which there is a distinction between wild vs. captive slaughter? That is because you do not read Hebrew. In Hebrew there is a word for domesticated animals, and another word for wild animals. This may be the break down in my not understanding what is Orthodox kosher acceptable vs Karaite kosher acceptable. We adhere to scripture only and follow Karaite teaching in our congregation. (aside from the Messiah beliefs of course) The term kosher implies acceptable according to Jewish standards. Food is either kosher, or it is not. True Karaites are not Jewish, nor do they claim to be Jewish. There is a Karaite man where I work, and he is my source for this. They follow the same laws of Kosher slaughter as do Jews, with several small exceptions. In fact, if you folow the karaite teachings and you eat meat, then the answer to your original question 4 (Is there true kosher slaughtering done in America?) is yes, since the Karaites in America eat meat that is strictly kosher, and only meat that has very qualified and experienced supervisors watching the slaughter. Rabbi Ezriel Yellin Lecturer, The Virtual Yeshiva www.virtualyeshiva.com RabbiEzriel@gmail.com Rabbi Eleazar said in the name of Rabbi Hanina: The disciples of the sages increase peace throughout the world as it is said "And all your children shall be taught of Hashem, and great shall be the peace of your children." Talmud Bavli Nazir 66b
Rabbi Daniel		#6	[-]
Posts: 2474 (09/17/08 12:34:55) Moderator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thank you for taking time to answer my questions...though I am concerned." You're "concerned?" Misplaced. " I have seen chickens running around with their heads decapitated...but this did not appear to be the involuntary movements of a dead cow." The opposite is the logical conclusion. The coordinated running around of a headless chicken implies 'life' while the spastic jerkings of the cow implies 'involuntary.' But the chickens head is off. So you don't care if it plays cards. Ok, the cows isn't. Not everyone is cut out to be a slaughterer. And if you read what I wrote again, anyway, what makes the cow dead is irrelevant to whatever movements it does or does not have. "there is only suppose to be ONE cut ... PETA video with a very pro-Kosher report but anti "AgriProsessors" who are not adhering to kosher slaughter laws." PITA are lying, conniving and manipulating low-lives who think they can mask their agenda saying "Oh, we're pro kosher! Just anti-Agri." Because if Agri did use what PITA ignorantly thinks is just "one cut" and then the cow jerked around for a minute or two, they'd be alright with that? Please. Don't be so gullible. "I do not find the "wild" part being in Torah. Is this Talmudic law ... Orthodox kosher acceptable vs Karaite kosher acceptable. Then you've never looked in a Torah. I.e., had a Torah education. Understandable since you are not Jewish. There is no kosher other than Orthodox kosher. That's kosher. All else is not kosher. Just more of the unethical conning you get from your movement/leadership which you inevitably pass on to others. "You can deny me as Jewish, but you cannot deny me my heritage. I am as much a child of Israel as you are." Jewish and child of Israel are one in the same. Neither Rabbi Ezriel nor I have the power to grant or deny anything. We simply state what is true. If you are not Jewish, which you confess to, than you are not a child of Israel. That's why you came to us. To approach an insider to get the truth. "I have no secret agenda... I would not belong to nor read an anti-Jewish site...ever. " Again, you probably don't. You're just victim to what you've accepted from your leadership. So we're letting you know you are part of an anti-Jewish movement which doesn't have the decency to come out and say it but uses deception and mimicry to attract its Jewish victims and then destroy them spiritually. "I am not quite sure why most of you made this question to be about whether or not my being Messianic makes me a Jew or not. Seems that was discussed more than my questions on Kosher slaughter!!!" This site attracts many people with many strengths and weaknesses. We are particularly sensitive to their weaknesses. Knowing what falls within the framework of Judaism and what doesn't. And then, that which is outside of Judaism, what is just a lack of observance vs. what actually spiritually destroys! So when you put in your profile that you are part of a mock-Jewish movement which, as I mentioned above, has an agenda of destroying Jewish souls, I felt it was worth drawing attention to. Especially when the practices of your movement are identically parallel to the practices of PITA embedded in the question. Tangential, although related, as much as I try to keep this forum succinct, not just in words but in posts as well, sometimes everybody wants to get their 2 cents in. Although one of the forums rules says that I WILL delete posts, we have some particularly whiny people around that complain to everyone other than myself when posts are deleted. Why does D.C. spend gazillions looking for intelligent life in space? Because all the unintelligent positions have been taken.
ChibiBug		#7	[-]
Posts: 7 (09/17/08 14:50:26) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It is pointless and unnecessary to argue/defend my beliefs in Y'shua as the COMING Messiah (you ascertain that I believe He IS the Messiah based on my acceptance of His teachings and death on the cross.... but because you do not know me, nor my beliefs, you would not know that I believe He will be the coming Messiah as He has not taken the roll of Messiah yet) Contrary to your ideas or labels that have been assigned to me, I am a Torah observant child of Israel and so therefore I believe I am commanded to eat Kosher. HaShem not only gave those laws to His children for spiritual benefits, but for physical as well....and I gladly and willingly obey and encourage everyone (Jew, Gentile, Atheist, etc...) to eat kosher because our creator knows our bodies and knows what is healthiest for it. Kosher and non-kosher animals were set in place before Israel was a nation (referring to the flood account). Anyway, I came to ask my question here because I know that it is orthodox Rabbis that set the kosher slaughter laws and all the "kosher" meat we consume in America should be falling under those laws. Thank you again for taking your time to answer my questions.
Rabbi Daniel		#8	[-]
Posts: 2475 (09/17/08 17:57:28) Moderator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	"It is pointless and unnecessary..." 100%!! Couldn't care less what christian beliefs you have or don't have. Totally pointless and unnecessary to the conversation. "Contrary to your ideas or labels that have been assigned to me, I am a Torah observant child of Israel..." See your next paragraph. "Anyway, I came to ask my question here because I know that it is orthodox Rabbis..." Exactly my point! It is us Orthodox Rabbis who maintained the message since OUR participation in the Revelation at Sinai. WE understand what G-d said and defend His truth and its applications. Exactly why we're taking this opportunity to let you know you are being grossly mislead. That is why you came to us. So we are the only qualified people to tell you what you are caught up in. We did. And my proof came out of your own mouth. We did our job. The rest is up to you. Good luck. Why does D.C. spend gazillions looking for intelligent life in space? Because all the unintelligent positions have been taken.
Rabbi Daniel	See it and believe it.	#9	[-]
Posts: 2479 (09/23/08 17:30:18) Moderator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Remarkable how in the same breath we are told we were approached for our authority and yet rejected when it came to other realities. Due to the relevance of this topic on more than one front I placed it as a "Featured Topic" to draw attention to it. Having become inactive, I closed the thread and I trimmed away the fat so newcomers can read it with maximum clarity.] "The academic said, why don't you put him in an institution, have a life of your own?" The Jewish mother responded, "What meaning would my life have?"
Rabbi Daniel		#10	[-]
Posts: 2505 (11/18/08 19:27:20) Moderator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This is from PETA's 2005 "Holocaust on Your Plate" Campaign: "Like the Jews murdered in concentration camps, animals are terrorized when they are housed in huge filthy warehouses and rounded up for shipment to slaughter. The leather sofa and handbag are the moral equivalent of the lampshades made from the skins of people killed in the death camps." ----------------------------------------- "Six million Jews died in concentration camps, but six billion broiler chickens will die this year in slaughterhouses." "A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy." -Ingrid Newkirk, Cofounder and president of PETA In light of their past history and their recent attack on a kosher meat packing plant, it seems Ingrid Newkirk and PETA have been and continues to be mad, ranting anti-Semites. Why does D.C. spend gazillions looking for intelligent life in space? Because all the unintelligent positions have been taken.

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