Re: Kabbalah

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amichayil	Re: Kabbalah	Lead	[-]
Posts: 21 (09/23/08 19:08:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None I have been in an online "discussion" with a xian, refuting the general ignorant statements regarding Judaism. One thing he said was that the, "Jewish people" had, "hidden knowledge from the rest of the world for millinnia--until now." I asked him why he said such an outrageous thing. He cut/pasted a paragraph from Wikipedia. (I found the paragraph there under, "Kabbalah" and tried to copy/paste it here, but Yuku wouldn't let me back into MT for some reason). I'm aware of the nature of Wikipedia, but the confusing paragraph had a footnote referencing Rabbi Yehuda Ashlag regarding Kabbalah. Since I can't copy/paste it, here's a portion of the paragraph; "Foreign conquests drove the Jewish spiritual leadership of the time (the Sanhedrin) to hide the knowledge and make it secret, fearing that it might be misused if it fell into the wrong hands.[5]". '5' is the footnote to Rabbi Ashlag. It then goes on to say, ".....As a result, the Kabbalah became secretive, forbidden and esoteric to Judaism ("Torat Ha'Sod"...) for two and a half millennia." I've never heard of the Sanhedrin refered to as, "spiritual leadership" before, (but the paragraph referenced Rabbi Ashlag). As to the, "...two and a half millennia" quote I'm assuming that's Wikipedia misinformation. Can you please clarify this for me? Thank you- amichayil
RabbiEzriel		#1	[-]
Posts: 258 (09/24/08 09:45:17) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Yeah, yeah, yeah, Wikipedia as a "source." Perfect for a christian who uses his book as a source. Wikipedia is like a call-in chat show. Many people give over their opinions, and expect everyone else to consider them to be facts. The Sanhedrin was, and will be the spiritual leadership of the Jewish people. But in reality, that is all that we need. Political leadership is a poor substitute. The essence of our being is spiritual, not political. And when everyone takes care of their spiritual needs, the political needs take care of themselves. Kabbala always was restricted knowledge. Even from Jews. To be able to comprehend the concepts is something that is beyond the abilities of people who do not have a very solid foundation in every other aspect of Torah first. It takes about 35 years of full-time study (during talmudic times - may be 50+ years today) to be able to even begin to understand some of the more basic concepts. The "secrets" that that have become availabele today, such as those espoused by that pop singer, are nothing more than "New Age" gobbledegook, tied up with a red string. Anyway, once your contact quoted wikipedia, the argument is invalid. Rabbi Ezriel Yellin Lecturer, The Virtual Yeshiva www.virtualyeshiva.com RabbiEzriel@gmail.com Rabbi Eleazar said in the name of Rabbi Hanina: The disciples of the sages increase peace throughout the world as it is said "And all your children shall be taught of Hashem, and great shall be the peace of your children." Talmud Bavli Nazir 66b
Rabbi Daniel		#2	[-]
Posts: 2481 (09/24/08 12:44:06) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I agree with my friend's response. I would reconsider saying it's "nothing more than "New Age" gobbledegook," because to me it gives an impression it is void of any Jewish content. But I think people will see Jewish content in it. Every lie has some measure of truth in it to glue the lies together. For clarity sake I would say that the "secrets" being espoused today by the charlatan is information on par with a 4th grade Jewish education. To the ignorant but wealthy masses he couches and packages these ABC's as "New Age" gobbledegook and sells them red strings for $40 each. 20oz bottles of tap water for $12 each. Etc. See what I mean? "The academic said, why don't you put him in an institution, have a life of your own?" The Jewish mother responded, "What meaning would my life have?" Last Edited By: Rabbi Daniel 09/24/08 12:48:40. Edited 1 times.
amichayil		#3	[-]
Posts: 22 (09/24/08 17:06:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thank you both for your replies. This on-line discussion began when I posted on a public forum in response to someone using the term, "Judeo-Christian". I said the term was an oxymoron and explained why, in a pedagogic manner. (The forum is about "Religion, Philosophy and Science" and the posters are mostly college students). A discussion followed and several students thanked me for providing information they had not learn in any of their 'World Religions' classes. It was shocking to me that they hadn't learned that about Judaism because my statements were very generalized. However, one person was not happy with what I had written and PM'd me with the usual xian challenges. I am currently in the process of responding to each challenge, but want to make sure my answers are correct according to normative Judaism and not just my own opinions. (e.g., my statement that historical Islam, (not political Islam), had things in common with Judaism, while Christianity did not, such as monotheism, dietary laws, etc. and that the three religions should not be lumped together as the, "Three Monotheistic Faiths"). That comment REALLY set him off. Along with my comment that one cannot study Kabbalah without a thorough Jewish educational background in Torah and fluency in the Hebrew language. Anyway, should I post my questions here? Or 'General Judaism'? Or 'Counter-Missionary'? It's obvious that his motivation is to convert me. He's using the xian stealth preliminary tactics, oblivious to the fact that I can see right through them, and is now going into defensive/offensive mode. Thank you, amichayil P.S. Yes, "charlatan" was the word I used regarding his on-line Kabbalah "knowledge".
Rabbi Daniel		#4	[-]
Posts: 2484 (09/24/08 23:36:48) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	You're welcome. Few points, big and small. Judeo-Christian would need a context. [I'm not saying you need to tell me the context. Just chatting with you.] My first response to this term is, "You mean Judeo." Judaism having being around 1500 years before the invent of xtianity, and xtianity having it built itself up on Judaism's moral teachings, "Judeo-Xtian" means "Judeo period." Agreed, just the same, that there are contexts were Judeo-Xtian is an oxymoron. When the students thanked you for the info they were "shocked" not to get it would have been the perfect opportunity to "remind" them their teachers are probably not the least bit objective and undoubtedly trying to push an agenda. Something of that sort. As for the kabbalah problem, it might help to have an example. Say, "If I tell you, 'In the formula e=mc^2, well, 'e' is the 5th letter of the alphabet,' does that mean I'm a physicists who just taught you the theory of relativity?" Wait for the "Of course not." Then close with the obvious. "Well he isn't a kabbalist and that isn't kabbalah." And if they retort, "Maybe you are a physicist but you were just being.... [silly, lazy, starting with the basics, a jerk]!" You can then respond, "I imagine a serious [genuine, real] physicist would say, 'To understand the theory of relativity do you understand energy transfer? The constant speed of light? The affect of mass on gravity? Einsteins General Theory? So too when you learn Chumash, Mishnah, Gemorah, Shulchan Aruch, all the Rishonim and Acharonim, then you can come back and we'll discuss kabbalah." I'd imagine where to post a question depends on the question. There are no fines if you post in the wrong thread and we have the means to move posts where they belong. And I don't mean deleting. :) *While it might not seem as fun as rattling the world with your wisdom, your time is better spent doing your own studying and rattling yourself. The academic said, "Why don't you put him in an institution, have a life of your own?" The Jewish mother responded, "What meaning would my life have?"
amichayil		#5	[-]
Posts: 23 (09/25/08 01:05:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thank you Rabbi Daniel, QUOTE: Judeo-Christian would need a context. [I'm not saying you need to tell me the context. Just chatting with you.] My first response to this term is, "You mean Judeo." (amichayil)--My response was to a poster who claimed to be a 'Satanist' and said, "....but not the 'Judeo-Christian' concept of Satan." Hence my reply as noted in my previous post. But I very much appreciate your clarification of the term. QUOTE: While it might not seem as fun as rattling the world with your wisdom, your time is better spent doing your own studying and rattling yourself. (amichayil)--I completely agree! I'm really not trying to rattle the world with my "wisdom", I don't have enough to do that! I'm a 53 year old Jewish mother and very concerned with the anti-semitism/anti-zionism and proselytizing on college campuses today. As I said, the forum I posted on is mostly college students and I was only trying to instill a little knowledge. That is the same reason I am responding to the xian student who PM'd me stating his disagreement with me, and answering his challenges. My rational is that if I can get even one student to stop and actually THINK instead of regurgitating what their biased professors are telling them..... ....well, I'm hoping anyway....
Rabbi Daniel		#6	[-]
Posts: 2485 (09/25/08 02:00:58) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Yup, that was an oxymoroner if I ever heard one. I hear you and now assure you EVEN MORE SO as a Jewish mom [and not the co-ed] that strengthening yourself will be much better for you and for all Israel than the PMing. The academic said, "Why don't you put him in an institution, have a life of your own?" The Jewish mother responded, "What meaning would my life have?"
SearchinMyRoots	Kabbalah	#7	[-]
Posts: 521 (09/25/08 07:56:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Okay, a little off the posts but on the thread. There is a famous book called "The Palm Tree of Devorah" or (if I'm spelling this correctly) Tomar Devorah. Is this considered a kabbalistic book? Or is it just bringing out some kabbalistic thought to the layman (for lack of a better word)? In other words, I don't need to have 40 years of Torah, Talmud study to read or understand it. I'm not trying to answer my own question, just seeking the wisdom of the Rabbi's. Thank you.
Rabbi Daniel		#8	[-]
Posts: 2486 (09/25/08 12:47:31) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Kabbalah for the layman is an oxymoron. If you read it you will discern that 'e' is the fifth letter of the alphabet. Tomer Devorah was written by R. Moses ben Jacob Cordovero, in the 1500's. Jewish wisdom is not limited to have to speak in tongues to make itself seem deep and cryptic. That's hollywood. You can read Tomer Devorah and think you understand it while having no idea what the author is saying. You have to "get" Kabbalah when you read it. That's why you need the background. That's why it's called "Kabbalah." All Judaism is passed down, generation to generation. It is all "received" from Rabbis, teachers, parents. So why is only Kabbalah called Kabbalah? [Kabbalah means received.] Because it's not that kind of recepton. It's not sitting and listening to a teacher and saying, "I get it." It's a reception that comes from within so ONLY with the proper preparation does one even stand a chance of getting it. You reading Tomer Devorah in order to "understand" it is like you waiting to win the lottery without a ticket. The academic said, "Why don't you put him in an institution, have a life of your own?" The Jewish mother responded, "What meaning would my life have?"
Sophiee1		#9	[-]
Posts: 11348 (09/25/08 15:03:27) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	As R' Daniel explained earlier, trying to understand Kabbalah without understanding Torah and Talmud is like reading a book on the heart and then calling yourself a heart surgeon. Without the years of college, medical school and years of residency you shouldn't make the first cut! סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
amichayil		#10	[-]
Posts: 24 (09/25/08 19:11:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Rabbi Daniel wrote: Yup, that was an oxymoroner if I ever heard one. I hear you and now assure you EVEN MORE SO as a Jewish mom [and not the co-ed] that strengthening yourself will be much better for you and for all Israel than the PMing. Thank you Rabbi Daniel for your response. I would just like to add a couple of things. First, my son (and only child) is a 33 year old grown man who is married and lives thousands of miles from me. He and his wife do not have children, but I'm still hoping...! I wasn't sure if your comment about me being a Jewish mom, and strengthening myself instead of PMing, was because you thought I still had children at home? Or in general, regardless of whether there were children still at home or not? I do continue my own studying and plan to for the rest of my life. I can't imagine NOT! (My maternal grandmother, of blessed memory, died in her old age while studying. I hope to be as fortunate). Secondly, the person in the PMs is also asking questions/making statements regarding Israel. I belong to an Israel Advocacy group and feel it's important to respond, for the sake of Israel, with facts. Thirdly, (okay, so I have more than "a couple of things" to add ) regarding the religious questions/statements in the PM, one concern is especially troubling to me. A stealth missionary tactic that I haven't experienced before, and that is using 'Kabbalah' as an opening to begin proselytizing. Of course, I could see through it instantly and let him know. At the same time, I can see how a Jewish college student, without a Jewish education, and 'searching for spirituality' could be easily duped. A scenerio: The Jewish college student is drawn into a discussion of New Age "Kabbalah" and the 'Jewishness' of it. At just the right moment, ideas from "xian cabalah" are introduced and presented as 'Jewish'. This tactic could possibly succeed with a Jewish student who would not be interested in the 'religion' of j4j or other messyantics, but could be drawn into the 'spirituality' of "Kabbalah", especially with it being a Hollywood fad....How can we protect them if we don't engage in on-line discussions? (I apologize if this subject has already been discussed/addressed here, and I missed seeing it.) Thank you, amichayil
Rabbi Daniel		#11	[-]
Posts: 2487 (09/26/08 00:32:21) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	"How can we protect them... First, you're not talking to one of "them" whom you feel needs protecting. Second, we protect them by making ourselves stronger, because we're all connected. The academic said, "Why don't you put him in an institution, have a life of your own?" The Jewish mother responded, "What meaning would my life have?"
RabbiEzriel		#12	[-]
Posts: 259 (09/26/08 05:12:06) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	As R' Daniel explained earlier, trying to understand Kabbalah without understanding Torah and Talmud is like reading a book on the heart and then calling yourself a heart surgeon. Without the years of college, medical school and years of residency you shouldn't make the first cut! And trying to understand Torah and Talmud just by reading books and translations is akin to the same thing. I've been telling my students for years that Torah (collective term for all Jewish knowledge) is not a dry academic topic. To merely read the text does not do anything. Torah has to be handed down, from father to son, from Rabbi to student. About a year ago, I was vacationing in Tiberius, in a charming hotel. My wife and I went out for a stroll one evening, and across the road was a "Kabbala" center. One of their "grabbers" tried to get us to come in. We kind of told her (with other victims in earshot) that we preferred to learn the real thing, and not the phoney stuff that they taught. Rabbi Ezriel Yellin Lecturer, The Virtual Yeshiva www.virtualyeshiva.com RabbiEzriel@gmail.com Rabbi Eleazar said in the name of Rabbi Hanina: The disciples of the sages increase peace throughout the world as it is said "And all your children shall be taught of Hashem, and great shall be the peace of your children." Talmud Bavli Nazir 66b
Rabbi Daniel		#13	[-]
Posts: 2489 (09/26/08 12:59:33) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	That's interesting. Xtian missionaries are specifically told not to approach religious people. They're given descriptions of religious attire. I wouldn't think these guys would bother either. L'havdil. The academic said, "Why don't you put him in an institution, have a life of your own?" The Jewish mother responded, "What meaning would my life have?"
reuven65		#14	[-]
Posts: 5240 (11/17/08 17:51:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Rabbi Daniel, you'd be surprised how many missionaries have stopped me at the grocery store, library, in and around town and attempted to missionize me regardless of the fact that I wear a kippa, tallit katan, etc. It is my experience that even when they know what these garments mean, they don't give a damn and will still attempt to murder my soul by peddling their wares of their false messiah/false religion. Missionaries are perfect nuisances and leave every place worse than they found it. Charles Dickens
DW Duke		#15	[-]
Posts: 2035 (11/21/08 10:31:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	reuven65 wrote: Rabbi Daniel, you'd be surprised how many missionaries have stopped me at the grocery store, library, in and around town and attempted to missionize me regardless of the fact that I wear a kippa, tallit katan, etc. It is my experience that even when they know what these garments mean, they don't give a damn and will still attempt to murder my soul by peddling their wares of their false messiah/false religion. Speak to them only in Hebrew. They will quickly depart.
avivai		#16	[-]
Posts: 67 (11/23/08 03:58:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	i am also having a discussion with a christian and he put me this question: "Do you consider the Kabbalah to be a part of the Jewish corpus?" just want to make sure before i respond...would the correct answer be a simple 'yes'? if not, then what would kabbalah be considered as? thanks, aviva
RabbiEzriel		#17	[-]
Posts: 269 (11/23/08 05:32:27) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	"Do you consider the Kabbalah to be a part of the Jewish corpus?" I think the person really wants to know if Kabbalah is an accepted part of Jewish Knowledge. To this - the answer is yes. For the inevitable follow-ups, see the rest of this thread. Rabbi Ezriel Yellin Lecturer, The Virtual Yeshiva www.virtualyeshiva.com RabbiEzriel@gmail.com Rabbi Eleazar said in the name of Rabbi Hanina: The disciples of the sages increase peace throughout the world as it is said "And all your children shall be taught of Hashem, and great shall be the peace of your children." Talmud Bavli Nazir 66b

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