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dawn6773

History help

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Posts: 8

(11/23/08 11:31:38)

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I'm sure you all have some info here. Having troubles finding it. Where to look? Right forum? I'll try to be short.

Midnight Shabbat I shot straight up out of bed. "What if this historical jc is just a myth." ProfBenTziyyon is this what you hinted at in your note to me when you said "mythical son?" Rabbi Daniel - I'll watch my wording. Don't need any pita fantics around - there's plenty stark raving mad evangelicals knocking on my door!

IMHO - before you make an accusation you have to look at the evidence before you. One that is used strongly in C (christian) circles is their sun idol manual for modern idolatry - I mean the NT. Last I checked it isn't a history book. It was compared to the Illiad for many years. The Illiad was held in esteem as a bible, if you will, and taught in schools as such until recently. Modern people would laugh to hear that. So, I don't think we can use that as evidence...maybe to uphold evidence, but not evidence. But wait - I'm not comfotable with inaccuacies. There are thousands of them there. Many theologians and authors blow it off saying they make no significant differance. Did the ever read Romans8:1 or the end of Mark. They do indeed make huge differences! And there are others. So, the accused lies. hmmmmm. Compared to Torah - every line and column are the same, number of letters and words the same in each line (not just page), same two "crowning" letters on top of each page, same subtile letter changes....haven't heard of any changes in Torah. Don't know about Tenach as a whole. Torah hasn't changed to my knowledge. Moving on -
The next bit of evidence used is Josephus. Which text? C's are fond of the Greek one. But when read in context, the style there doesn't sound like the rest of the book. It's very missionary, if you will. The Arabic, less so. The thing in agreement between them is someone existed called jc. I don't have Antiquites. It's my mom's and at here place. It would be interesting to see what time period chapter 18 is referring to.
What about other historians? My mom has another book at her house again that dedicates a chapter to this. Will check it out later. The two I remember are Suetonius and Tactis. As I recall, (I've never seen the texts, only quotes from them) the quoted parts speak of followers of jc, not of him. Prove his existence? Hmmmm. Have you read the story of Apollonius of Tyana (90's c.e.), or king Nimrod and baby Tammuz, or? The list is long with this same story. Just different names. To use historians mentioning followers of this guy...wait was it this guy or one of the others with a new name? Maybe my logic is terribly messed up here. Any historians actually speak of him being alive?
From there I've been directed to Jewish writings. I can't answer these ones. I've not read from a Talmud. Some Mishnayot. A few others. Do you know anything of these passages? Sanhedrin 43a and 106b, Avoda Zara 16b-17a, and Tosefta, Chullin 2.22-23? Also, there is one read every year at Rosh Hashana by a Messy - er Messianic preacher - who is a Jew by birth. He says that from (I think, could be wrong) Tractate Rosh Hashana (maybe Pesach or Yom Kippur, at any rate, one on a Holy Day) this "fact" is found: when jc was crucified until the destruction of the temple the temple doors wouldn't stay shut, the ner tamid wouldn't stay lit and the crimson thread on azazel wouldn't turn white. Is there such a passage? It seems suspicious to me as, if it indeed existed, wouldn't the "messy" world, missionaries and evangelists have a hay day with it. But, I'll give him a benefit of a doubt. Maybe it exists and the others haven't found it.

Evidence jc existed. I can't comfortable prove it. What say you?

reuven65

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Posts: 5245

(11/23/08 15:35:05)

Uhm that may have been me since I do not believe in a J* whoever walked this earth. If the J* in the xian texts is to be real, the man was cluless om Judaiam and that's just the tip of the iceburg as you will soon see here. There are many, many actual proof texts from scripture that will clearly illunstrate J* never lived a day and if a man namd J* did, he surely was no messiah since he failed at every prophecy and act the messiah was to do....and no, he isn't making a second appearance for those not in attendence.

The issues with Josephus is his writings are so out of date, filled with errors and this NOT Cannonized.

If one cannot prove someting to an adequate conclusion, there is no reason to go on...Here is a little on te quote supposedly from Josephus for you to reconsider.

Missionaries are perfect nuisances and leave every place worse than they found it.
Charles Dickens

reuven65

Not Jospehus Again....

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Posts: 5246

(11/23/08 15:36:20)

Christians love to point out that Josephus, a Jew, wrote about Jesus, thereby validating the historical existence of Jesus.

However, the part in Flavius Josephus about Jesus was placed there much later, after Josephus' death, by Christians. The alleged Josephus' reference to Jesus in the Testimonium Flavianum may be translated from the Greek as follows:

"At this time there was Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising works, (and) a teacher of people who with pleasure received the unusual. He stirred up both many Jews and many of Greeks. He was the Christ. And when Pilate condemned him to the cross, since he was accused by the first-rate men among us, those who had been living (him from) the first did not cease (to cause trouble), for he appeared to them on the third day, having life again, as the prophets of God had foretold these and countless other marvelous things about him. And until now the tribe of Christians, so named from him, is not (yet?) extinct." Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Bk XVIII, Ch III, Sn 3

The knowledge here compresses the kerygma, the earliest formulation of the Christian message by the author of the Gospel of Mark and the apostle Paul. However, because it has an explicit acceptance of Jesus as Messiah [Christ] and of his resurrection, almost all scholars believe that this passage is a Christian interpolation AND thereby a forgery. There are some scholars who believe that the core of it is original, and Christians added only the parts acknowledging Jesus as Messiah and the reality of resurrection.

"Probably the most damning evidence against the Josephus passages is that the two interpolated passages do not appear in Origen's second-century version of Antiquities. Origin was locked in a fierce debate with the Platonic philosopher Celsus over the merits of Christianity in Origen Contra Celsum (Origen against Celsus) and although Origen quotes freely from Antiquities to support Christianity, he never once used either of these passages instead remarking that 'Josephus did not believe that Jesus was the Christ.'" - James Still, "Biblical and Extra-biblical Sources for Jesus"

"For more than two hundred years, the Christian Fathers who were familiar with the works of Josephus knew nothing of this passage. Had the passage been in the works of Josephus which they knew, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen and Clement of Alexandria would have been eager to hurl it at their Jewish opponents in their many controversies. But it did not exist. Indeed, Origen, who knew his Josephus well, expressly affirmed that that writer had not acknowledged Christ. This passage first appeared in the writings of the Christian Father Eusebius, the first historian of Christianity, early in the fourth century; and it is believed that he was its author. Eusebius, who not only advocated fraud in the interest of the faith, but who is known to have tampered with passages in the works of Josephus and several other writers, introduces this passage:" - Marshall J. Gauvin, "Did Jesus Christ Really Live?" "Certainly the attestations I have already produced concerning our Savior may be sufficient. However, it may not be amiss, if, over and above, we make use of Josephus the Jew for a further witness." - Eusebius, Evangelical Demonstration, Book III., p.124

"Everything demonstrates the spurious character of the passage [Testimonium Flavianum]. It is written in the style of Eusebius, and not in the style of Josephus. Josephus was a voluminous writer. He wrote extensively about men of minor importance. The brevity of this reference to Christ is, therefore, a strong argument for its falsity. This passage interrupts the narrative. It has nothing to do with what precedes or what follows it; and its position clearly shows that the text of the historian has been separated by a later hand to give it room." Marshall J. Gauvin, "Did Jesus Christ Really Live?"

After Josephus died, his writings were gone over by the early church with a fine tooth and comb.

As Eusebius was so famous of doing, there would be no doubt that any literature that needed to be changed to justify the Church's concept of Jesus would indeed be changed, colored and flavored.

And who were alive then that had knowledge of Josephus' writings to challenge Eusebius? Even Josephus couldn't defend his own writings.

So using Josephus, to say anything about Jesus is scholarly absolutely not valid.

http://jdstone.org/cr/fil...ouldnotdefendhimself.html

Missionaries are perfect nuisances and leave every place worse than they found it.
Charles Dickens

Sophiee1

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Posts: 11456

(11/23/08 16:47:19)

Moderator

Dawn, there is no historical evidence that Jsus ever existed. None.

Now this doesn't mean that he didn't exist -- and then myth grew around some real person, but just that there is zero evidence that he did.

From www.positiveatheism.org/hist/rmsbrg02.htm

Quote:

There is no historical reference to Jsus life, death or the crucifixionnothing at all. John E. Remsburg, in his classic book The Chrst: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence 1 lists the following contemporary historians/writers who lived during the time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus was supposed to have lived:

Apollonius Persius
Appian Petronius
Arrian Phaedrus
Aulus Gellius Philo-Judaeus
Columella Phlegon
Damis Pliny the Elder
Dio Chrysostom Pliny the Younger
Dion Pruseus Plutarch
Epictetus Pompon Mela
Favorinus Ptolemy
Florus Lucius Quintilian
Hermogones Quintius Curtius
Josephus Seneca
Justus of Tiberius Silius Italicus
Juvenal Statius
Lucanus Suetonius
Lucian Tacitus
Lysias Theon of Smyran
Martial Valerius Flaccus
Paterculus Valerius Maximus
Pausanias

Enough of the writings of the authors named in the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jsus. . .

You mentioned Josephus, so let's just examine what we know about Josephus.

Josephus was a Jew. He never became a Chrstiian and he never believed Jsus was the messiah. He was born in 37 CE --- which post dates Jsus supposed death. Ergo never saw Jsus and wasn't even alive when the Chrstians say Jsus was alive. Josephus wrote many years after Jsus supposed death starting after 67 CE.

So here we have a Jewish man born AFTER Jsus supposed death wh didn't begin to write until 34 years after his supposed death. IF he wrote anything about Jsus (which I doubt sincerely) then it was based on what others would have told him. Did these persons unknown know a real Jsus or were they, too, just passing along information they heard from someone else -- and so on?

The most flagrant of Josephus "quotes" that Chrstians use to "prove" Josephus wrote about Jsus is found in Antiquities 18.3.3 -- it is an obvious later insertion (possibly by Eusebius the bishop since it first appeared in his timeframe (300 CE).

Earlier Chrstians, including Origen (a second century Chrstian who worked hard to convert Jews and Pagans to Chrstianity) never mentions it. Surely in his ZEAL to convert Jews to Chrstianity Origen would have used a writing from Josephus. The omission by anyone prior to Eusebius is very telling that this is a later insertion by the church.

Origen DID write about Josephus saying (in Contra Celsum which is a work countering a famous pagan author, Celsum, who wrote against Chrstianity) that Josephus did not believe in Jsus as the Chrst. (If even Origen's quote is not itself a forgery. Louis Feldman, the pre-eminent Josephus scholar, says that Origen's Contra Celsus does not reference "the 18th book of his Antiquities").

Only when Eusebeius shows up we get the infamous quote that contradicts Origen. Eusebius was a bishop known for outrageous quotes. Eusebius is definitely not a reliable source. My three favorites from him are:

1. A letter of Abgar to Jsus,
2. Jsus' reply
3. A picture painted from life, of Jsus!

Modern archeologists discovered an Arabic version of Josephus that does NOT contain this forgery. Again, from Louis Feldman the renowned Josephus historian:

Quote:
"In a startling find, Shlomo Pines publishes citations of the TF appearing in Arabic and Syriac works of the 9th-10th century. These quotations substantially resemble our current Testimonium, but do not have two of the most suspicious phrases: "he was the Messiah" and "if indeed he can be called a man". Pines suggests these editions may have used an authentic, uninterpolated version of Josephus' work."

So much for Josephus being a source for the "real" existence of Jsus. Here is Pines' translation:

Quote:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jsus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.

To a Jew it doesn't matter if Jsus lived or not, it is totally immaterial. To a Chrstian you'd think they'd wonder why this man-god isn't mentioned by anyone alive when he was supposedly alive. Neither are his supposed miracles or thousands in crowds (the Romans would have mentioned this). The Greek Text gets its Israel geography wrong, it gets its people wrong (having events happen when they could not have happened) and so forth.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Sophiee1

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Posts: 11457

(11/23/08 17:13:00)

Moderator

Dawn, Yeshu was a fairly common name and there are a few mentioned in the Talmud. None fits the timeframe or "descriptions" or details of Jsus of the Chrstian religion. I refer you to "The Truth about the Talmud" which quotes it.

Quote:
It is taught: On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that "[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray. Anyone who knows something to clear him should come forth and exonerate him." But no one had anything exonerating for him and they hung him on the eve of Passover.

Ulla said: Would one think that we should look for exonerating evidence for him? He was an enticer and G-d said (Deuteronomy 13:9) "Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him."

Yeshu was different because he was close to the government.

Unless the Xians have their dates off by a mile neither Ben Strada or Ben Pandira were the Jsus of the GT. The first lived 100 CE and the latter 80 BCE. And note (from the passage above) that Pandira had friends in the government.

Again, really immaterial to Judaism if one of the Yeshu's in the Talmud mentions someone who might have been the basis of the Jsus of the GT -- if so it is even more damning to the Chrstian idea of a man-god / savior than if one did NOT exist. But the various Yeshus in the Talmud don't fit the timing or the details of the GT.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

ProfBenTziyyon

Corrigenda

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Posts: 1457

(11/23/08 23:56:53)

1. The past tense of the verb to hang in its meaning of a means of execution is [color=red]hanged, not "hung".

2. The term קָרוֹב לַמַּלְכוּת which is used near the bottom of folio 43a of Masechet Sanhedrin to account for the variation of normal procedure in the case of Yéshu's execution

.אֶלָּא שָׁאנִי יֵשׁוּ דְּקָרוֹב לַמַּלְכוּת הֲוָה....
"....but Yéshu was different because he was karov to the malchut."

is actually susceptible of FOUR separate translations because each of the two words קָרוֹב and מַלְכוּת has two different meanings....

קָרוֹב can mean "close", but can also mean "related"; and
מַלְכוּת can mean "the [Roman] government", but can also mean "the Royal Family".

Thus the Talmudic statement דְּקָרוֹב לַמַּלְכוּת הֲוָה d'karov lamalchut havah could mean ANY of the following:

(a) "because he was close to the occupying Roman authorities", or
(b) "because he was related to the occupying Roman authorities", or
(c) "because he was close to the Royal Family", or
(d) "because he was related to the Royal Family".

Obviously christians would like it to be "translation" (d), but in fact (a) is by far the most likely meaning.

http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל

Sophiee1

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Posts: 11459

(11/24/08 06:54:53)

Moderator

Just to clarify -- there is no form of Jewish execution which includes hanging. When the Talmud speaks of Yeshu hanging it is the body that was hung on a tree after the execution. This was done (by many countries) so that others would see what happens to those who committed a heinous crime deserving execution.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Noahide Dave

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Posts: 67

(11/24/08 09:07:56)

It seems that Christianity has something Big to Hide, since for 2000 years they cannot even give any proof of authenticity, of the gospal charecter assertions, but instead only provide what early church fathers fabricated ... call that G-ds exact word, and go a step further and demand that you believe in it, as history would show.
It is a disingenuous proposition , and that is to say the least.

The mere sense that someone requests for Proof and Accuratecy should not only be considered admirable, as it concerns such matters of G-d, but certainly a Valid Request !

Noahide Dave.

dawn6773

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Posts: 9

(11/24/08 10:27:17)

Thanks. Have just a moment and a dreadful headache. Hope this makes sense. You all brought up things I had never heard...surprised? Not at all. Part of keeping the less inquisitive in the dark. As this is new to me, I will have to reread and check out what you all say. Emotionally I'm thinking, "Oh, wow. Maybe this midnight revelation is not so crazy." But, a belief built on emotion? Been there. Done that. Yikes!
Concerning the Talmud portions that I mentioned, do I understand Sophie correctly that they are taken out of context and do not even have to do with this person? Having only the quotes in my possession and not the text it was from makes it difficult to check out for myself. The one I mentioned from the preacher, is that just made up...or grossly misquoted? I would like to know as that is one that is thrown in my face by these evangelicals I mentioned.
Thanks

Sophiee1

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Posts: 11461

(11/24/08 10:42:17)

Moderator

dawn6773 wrote:
(snip)
Concerning the Talmud portions that I mentioned, do I understand Sophie correctly that they are taken out of context and do not even have to do with this person?

Hi Dawn:

Please follow the link given in my earlier post: "The Truth about the Talmud" He gives the quotes that Chrstians reference as being about Jsus and he gives you both the Hebrew and English. He further explains how they don't fit Jsus.

Talmud Shabbat 104b, Sanhedrin 67a

It is taught: R. Eliezer told the sages: Did not Ben Stada bring witchcraft with him from Egypt in a cut that was on his skin? They said to him: He was a fool and you cannot bring proof from a fool.

Ben Stada is Ben Pandira.

R. Chisda said: The husband was Stada and the lover was Pandira.

[No,] the husband was Pappos Ben Yehudah and the mother was Stada.

[No,] the mother was Miriam the women's hairdresser [and was called Stada]. As we say in Pumbedita: She has turned away [Stat Da] from her husband.

Summary
What we see from here is that there was a man named Ben Stada who was considered to be a practicer of black magic. His mother was named Miriam and also called Stada. His father was named Pappos Ben Yehudah. Miriam (Stada) had an affair with Pandira from which Ben Stada was born.

Proof
Some historians claim that Ben Stada, also known as Ben Pandira, was Jsus. His mother's name was Miriam which is similar to Mary. Additionally, Miriam was called a women's hairdresser, "megadla nashaia" [for this translation, see R. Meir Halevi Abulafia, Yad Rama, Sanhedrin ad. loc.]. The phrase "Miriam megadla nashaia" sounds similar to Mary Magdalene, a well-known New Testament figure.
Problems
1. Mary Magdalene was not Jsus' mother. Neither was Mary a hairdresser.
2. Jsus' step-father was Joseph. Ben Stada's step-father was Pappos Ben Yehudah.
3. Pappos Ben Yehudah is a known figure from other places in talmudic literature. The Mechilta Beshalach (Vayehi ch. 6) has him discussing Torah with Rabbi Akiva and Talmud Berachot 61b has Pappos Ben Yehudah being captured and killed by Romans along with Rabbi Akiva. Rabbi Akiva lived during the second half of the first century and the first half of the second century. He died in the year 134. If Pappos Ben Yehudah was a contemporary of Rabbi Akiva's, he must have been born well after Jsus' death and certainly could not be his father.

Talmud Sanhedrin 107b, Sotah 47a, Talmud Sanhedrin 67a, Talmud Sanhedrin 43a, and Tosefta Chullin 2:23 are found on this page (in the link above).

He charts the information:

Yeshu Ben Pandira

Passage 2

Lived appr. 80 BCE

Student of R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah

Escaped persecution by fleeing to Egypt and, upon return, became an idolater

Passage 4

Executed on the day before Passover

Had close contact with government officials

Passage 5

Had five disciples who were also executed.

Passage 6

His legacy remained for centuries, even until the time of R. Yishmael (died 133)

Ben Stada

Passage 1

Lived appr. 100 CE

Sometimes called Ben Pandira but mainly Ben Stada, possibly to differentiate him from Yeshu Ben Pandira

Brought witchcraft from Egypt

Mother was Miriam the hairdresser, also known as Stada

Father was Pandira

Step-father was Pappos Ben Yehudah

Passage 3

Executed on the day before Passover in Lud for idol

Lastly, here is his statementof purpose and the Table of Contents to his website:

Talmud: Statement of Purpose
There are many lies circulating the internet about the Jewish Talmud. These allegations are supported by "direct quotations" from the Talmud that are frequently wrong or taken out of context. However, most people lack the scholarly background to verify these claims. Most people have no way of knowing that these accusation are false and malicious. What we are attempting is to demonstrate in detail how these accusations are both wrong and intentionally misleading. We are trying to show to the world the real truth about the Talmud.

Written by Gil Student

Table Of Contents

About The Talmud
The Real Truth About The Talmud: Why does this site exist?
What Is The Talmud?: An explanation of the history and content of the Talmud
Talmud and Bible: Is the Talmud holier than the Bible?
Jewish People: Is Judaism a religion or a race?
To Tell The Truth: Are Jews commanded to lie about the Talmud?
Gentiles In Judaism: Where do gentiles fit into the Jewish world view?
What is a Jew? (Wikipedia entry)

Alleged Racism In The Talmud
Gentiles Are Human: The Talmud does not consider gentiles to be sub-human
Gentiles Are Human 2: The Talmud does not consider gentiles to be animals
Stealing From Gentiles: The Talmud forbids stealing from gentiles
Paying A Gentile's Wages: The Talmud prohibits Jews from withholding a gentile's wages
Tricking Gentiles: The Talmud forbids lying to gentiles
Killing Gentiles: The Talmud prohibits killing gentiles
Various Accusations: Refuting various accusations against the Talmud

Chrstianity In The Talmud
Introduction
Jsus In The Talmud: What, if anything, does the Talmud say about Jsus?
The Jsus Narrative: Does the Talmud's narrative of events correspond or differ from the Gospels'?
Chrstianity: What does the Talmud have to say about Chrstianity in general?

Jewish Holidays
Blood Libel: Jews never eat blood
Passover: The Passover Haggadah is not racist
Kol Nidrei: Permission to deceive?

Immorality In The Talmud
The Talmud Does Not Permit Sex With A Three Year Old
Sexual Morality in the Talmud: The Talmud's prudence
Rabbi Eleazar and the Prostitutes: The Full Story

Miscellaneous
Schindler's List: The source of the disputed quotation
Israel Shahak's Lie: "A Modern Blood Libel" by Rabbi Dr. Immanuel Jakobovits, former Chief Rabbi of the British Empire (Offsite)
"In The Image Of G-d": Gentiles are created in the image of G-d
"Goy": Is it a derogatory term used by Jews about gentiles?
Rabbi Soloveitchik: Refuting the slander against him
Ethics Of The Fathers: The section of the Mishnah dedicated to the favorite ethical sayings of the sages
Related Links
Recommended Reading

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Last Edited By: Sophiee1 11/25/08 12:29:34. Edited 2 times.

dawn6773

[-]

Posts: 10

(11/24/08 12:50:26)

Wow - much to look at. This is going to take a while. So, I'm going to download the above and check it out. But, have taxes and other business to take care of first.

Quickly - maybe in the info above I will find this answer. Historically this story of jc has no leg to stand on. Why then was the Roman calendar created around this event? I've heard some silly conspiracies about the Vatican and them hiding something so they can control the masses. Maybe I believe in the goodness of people too much and therefore think it isn't a conspiracy. Whatever the case, another "proof" includes the creation of this calendar. Do you know anything of this?

Sophiee1

[-]

Posts: 11462

(11/24/08 13:29:27)

Moderator

I'm not sure what calendar you are asking about -- or what event (Chrstmas?).

You probably know that Chrstianity began to "take off" when the Roman Emperor Constantine made it the official Roman religion in the 4th century of the common era.

The current common calendar is the Georgian, and it was officially put in place in 1582 of the common era. It modified the Julian calendar (from around 45 BCE).

Since I don't understand your question I may or may not be answering it -- but the pagans always had a relgious holiday on December 25th caled Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (which translates to "the birthday of the unconquered sun").

BTW it was Constantine who put the Chrstian day of rest on "Sun" day.

"On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed."

Isaac Newton thought that December 25th was chosen for Chrstmas to conincide with the winter solstice.

Again, not sure if this is what you were after. If not, please clarify your question about calendars (or specifically the Roman calendar) and what event you are speaking about. TY.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

ProfBenTziyyon

[-]

Posts: 1461

(11/24/08 15:24:40)

Sophiee1 wrote:
The current common calendar is the Georgian, and it was officially put in place in 1582 of the common era. It modified the Julian calendar (from around 45 BCE).

The current christian calendar was instituted by Pope Gregory XIII (1502-1585, reigned 1572-1585) and is known as the GREGORIAN, not the Georgian, calendar. The Julian calendar, which it superseded, was the brainchild of Julius Cæsar and was introduced in 46BCE (2 years before his assassination by the conspiracy led by Marcus Junius Brutus and Gaius Cassius Longinus).

http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל

Sophiee1

[-]

Posts: 11463

(11/24/08 16:49:45)

Moderator

Duh, of course you are right. It is the GREgorian calendar, not Georgian. My bad.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

On Dr Browns side

[-]

Posts: 210

(11/24/08 16:56:57)

Hey everyone, Sophiee and Dawn in particular,

Since this subject is not related to Biblical interpretation, but history, let's take into account historians and scholars of this time period. Would you accept scholarly sources related to this subject of Jesus' existence? By the way, please cite the scholars you are using to come to your conclusion, or who support your conclusion.

I will be posting here in the next couple of weeks to demonstrate that Jesus did exist. But just as a starter, I would like to ask you guys a question. This is not an appeal to authority since I am not claiming that Jesus existed based on this fact, but...

Do you realize that the huge, huge, vast majority of historians and experts have no doubt at all that Jesus existed? Even the Jesus seminar does not doubt this. Neither do the Jewish scholars Geza Vermes, David Flusser, and many many many more. Not using this as evidence, just wondering what you have to say about that.

Sophiee1

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Posts: 11464

(11/24/08 17:27:46)

Moderator

I am no expert on calendars (as can be shown by my calling what I knew was the Gregorian Georgian). AFAIK there is no argument about when the Gregorian calendar was accepted. One source is a book entitled Backgrounds of Early Chrstianity, by Everett Ferguson.

Everett Ferguson has a PhD from Harvard and is professor emeritus of Bible and distinguished scholar-in-residence at Abilene Christian University in Abilene, Texas, where he taught church history and Greek. He wrote in that book:

"the solar calendar introduced by Caesar and Augustus encouraged sun festivals, especially the dies natalis Solis invicti (the birthday of the invincible sun) - December 25th."

Another source is The New Englander and Yale Review, in this case attributed to Edward Royall Tyler, William Lathrop Kingsley, George Park Fisher, Timothy Dwight. Page 527-528:

". . .dies natalis solis invicti. . .it iswell known that the Chrstian celebration of dies natalis, the Chrstmas festival, was fixed upon the same day. We have thus the extraordinary fact that of the two great Babylonian feasts, one corresponds within a single day to the high Chrstian festival of Chrstmas; while the other, that of April 1st, corresponds as exactly for any fixed day, to the other high festival of the Chrstians, the movable Easter. . ."

ODBS said:

Do you realize that the huge, huge, vast majority of historians and experts have no doubt at all that Jsus existed?

You are, of course, speaking of Western (primarily Chrstian) historians and experts. This fact is worthless. At one time the majority of experts were sure the earth was flat. There was a time the experts were sure man would never fly. The majority is often wrong! I enjoyed watching a show yesterday on Einstein and Eddington where the men proved Sir Isaac Newton's theories incorrect and thus advanced science -- even though all the experts KNEW Sir Isaac was right.

Experts agree until they are proven wrong. So let's not worry about Jsus seminars or any other "modern" sources until such a time as they can prove anything. Let's stick with historical sources who were alive when Jsus was supposedly alive. So far the number is 0.

This topic isn't related to Judaism directly feel free to try to prove Jsus' existence using ancient historians -- or archeology -- or any other thing that you think can definitely prove that the man mentioned in the GT existed.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Last Edited By: Sophiee1 11/24/08 17:33:39. Edited 1 times.

ProfBenTziyyon

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Posts: 1463

(11/24/08 17:32:54)

On Dr Browns side wrote:
Would you accept scholarly sources related to this subject of Jesus' existence.... I will be posting here in the next couple of weeks to demonstrate that Jesus did exist.....

So what? WHO CARES? People like you never seem to get the message, ODBS.... we just DON'T CARE!!!!! What will it take to get it through to your seemingly impenetrable and impervious skull that your guy - whether he existed OR NOT - is insignificant and COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to us?????

http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל

On Dr Browns side

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Posts: 211

(11/24/08 17:54:49)

You are, of course, speaking of Western (primarily Chrstian) historians and experts. This fact is worthless. At one time the majority of experts were sure the earth was flat. There was a time the experts were sure man would never fly. The majority is often wrong! I enjoyed watching a show yesterday on Einstein and Eddington where the men proved Sir Isaac Newton's theories incorrect and thus advanced science -- even though all the experts KNEW Sir Isaac was right.

Define "western" scholarship and why that somehow makes the fact that so many come to the same conclusion worthless. This comparison is laughable. I can only imagine what you would say if the shoe were on the other foot and the majority of scholars believed Jesus didn't exist, and a Christian stated exactly what you just said. I doubt you would ever accept such a statement, yet you feel fine making it.

Experts agree until they are proven wrong. So let's not worry about Jsus seminars or any other "modern" sources until such a time as they can prove anything. Let's stick with historical sources who were alive when Jsus was supposedly alive. So far the number is 0.

How do you think the majority of scholars reach the same conclusion? It is based on historical sources from Jesus' time. Have you done any extensive research on this subject even? I don't mean googling things and searching websites like jdstone. I mean scholars, real historians and experts. Have you read any of their works and conclusions? If you haven't put in the real effort in attempting to discover whether or not Jesus existed, then why post things as if they are conclusive evidence that Jesus did not exist?

By the way, do you know Lawrence Schiffman? I guess he, too, is one of these experts who is just mistakenly thinking the world is flat, as well as the Jewish scholars in Israel who believe Jesus existed?

ProfBenTziyyon

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Posts: 1464

(11/24/08 18:48:48)

Sophiee1 wrote:
dies natalis Solis invicti (the birthday of the invincible sun) - December 25th....

The Roman festival that was celebrated on or around December 25th was called Saturnalia (Latin Saturnalis) and is mentioned in the Talmud....

משנה. ואלו אידיהן של עובדי כוכבים: קלנדא וסטרנורא.... דברי רבי מאיר
Mishnah. These are the heathens' festivals: Calends and Saturnalia.... this is Rabbi Mé'ir's opinion....

גמרא. אמר רב חנן בר רבא: קלנדא ח' ימים אחר תקופה, סטרנורא ח' ימים לפני תקופה....
ת"ר לפי שראה אדם הראשון יום שמתמעט והולך אמר: אוי לי, שמא בשביל שסרחתי עולם חשוך בעדי וחוזר לתוהו ובוהו וזו היא מיתה שנקנסה עלי מן השמים! עמד וישב שמונה ימים בתענית ובתפלה; כיון שראה תקופת טבת וראה יום שמאריך והולך אמר: מנהגו של עולם הוא! הלך ועשה שמונה ימים טובים; לשנה האחרת עשאן לאלו ולאלו ימים טובים. הוא קבעם לשם שמים, והם קבעום לשם עבודת כוכבים׃
G'mara. Said Rav Hanan bar Rava: "Calends is eight days after the [winter] solstice and Saturnalia is eight days before the [winter] solstice...."
The Rabbis taught: when the primitive Adam saw the length of the day getting gradually shorter and shorter, he said, "Woe is me! Perhaps because I sinned the world is becoming darkened for me and is going to revert to the state of tohu va-vohu - and this is the death that has been decreed for me by Heaven!" So he arose and sat for eight days fasting and praying and then, when the winter solstice had occurred and he saw that the length of the day was getting gradually longer and longer, he said, "This must be the natural order of things!" So he went and celebrated an eight-day festival and, the following year, he made both eight-day periods into festive celebrations. He established these festivals in honour of Heaven, but they [the heathens] perverted them into idolatry. (Treatise Avodah Zarah, folio 8a)

http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל

On Dr Browns side

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Posts: 212

(11/24/08 19:05:10)

BTW Sophiee, these are NOT primarily Christian scholars as you wrongly assumed in your post.

Sophiee1

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Posts: 11465

(11/24/08 20:39:11)

Moderator

On Dr Browns side wrote:
By the way, do you know Lawrence Schiffman? I guess he, too, is one of these experts who is just mistakenly thinking the world is flat, as well as the Jewish scholars in Israel who believe Jsus existed?

Insults again? Why?

Lawrence Schiffman is alive today and therefore knows well that the earth is not flat -- the POINT (which apparently was missed completely) is that simply because a majority of people believe something doesn't make it so.

There is no PROOF that Jsus existed. And as the Professor as stated, we don't CARE. IF such a person ever existed then, per the Greek text which you follow, he was a very poor Jew leading others away from Torah. Later Chrstians who did not know if he was real EITHER (e.g. Paul) turned it into a pagan man-god religion and THAT is what is important. Not whether or not some human being was distorted beyond all knowing into something either worshiped as a god or close to being worshipped as one (in Jsus name ring a bell?).

Feel free to bring PROOF and not insults and we can have a dialog. I have already shown in this thread that there is no proof of contemporaries alive when Jsus was supposedly alive to show that he ever lived. Furthermore the Greek text itself gives contradictory information which makes it impossible for him to have lived (as described in the GT).

Did you know, ODBS, that the GT claims that when Jsus was born Herod was king of Judea:

"THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea..." Luke 1:5

It further claims that Quirinius was the governor of Syria:

"And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria." Luke 2:2

And the Caesar August ruled in Rome:

"...there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed." Luke 2:1

It is impossible because these happened at the same time. Happy to into detail if you'd like.

Whether Jsus lived or not is extremely important to Chrstianity, for obviously without Jsus there IS no Chrstianity. But it is completely immaterial to a Jew. We simply do not care! It wouldn't change Judaism if he never existed or if he DID exist, exactly as described in the GT. It is as immaterial as whether Harry Potter existed or not.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Last Edited By: Sophiee1 11/24/08 20:51:18. Edited 1 times.

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