For those who may be interested, I have just posted a new page on my website: it's called "T'nach concordance of the Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ (mashiyah)" and the address is mordochai.tripod.com/mashiyah-concordance.html.
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ProfBenTziyyon |
T'nach concordance of the Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ (mashiyah) |
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For those who may be interested, I have just posted a new page on my website: it's called "T'nach concordance of the Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ (mashiyah)" and the address is mordochai.tripod.com/mashiyah-concordance.html. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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tyolilums |
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I like it. It's a great reference. Thanks.
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tyolilums |
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Prof, would I be correct in saying that the Tanach only names four Moshiachs? Saul, David,Josiah, and Cyrus?
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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tyolilums wrote:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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Sophiee1 |
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How about Isaiah 45:1 and למשיחו?
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Sophiee1 wrote:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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Sophiee1 |
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The word is there in Isaiah 45:1, and it has been the cause of debate among the sages. Is G-d calling Cyrus his messiah, or is he referencing someone else as
the messiah? The Artscroll Schottenstein sides with the Gemara:
Rashi proves [R. Nahman bar Hisda's contention that למשיחו לכורש are to be understood separately] by pointing out that the trop (the masoretic cantillations), of the word למשיחו is a zarka, which is generally followed by a word with the trop of segol, which signifies that the words are connected. However, in this verse the word לכורש, which follows למשיחו, does not have a segol. This proves that the two words are not connected.The word למשיחו is clearly there. Megillah 12a debates whether or not G-d was actually speaking of Cyrus as the messiah, or whether G-d was speaking to the messiah about Cyrus -- but in either case the word is there, and the clear meaning (pshat) appears to be that it is Cyrus who is called G-d's messiah. Keeping in mind that this isn't "the messiah", but "a messiah." Cyrus was certainly an anointed king -- just not a Jewish one.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Sophiee1 wrote:
The discussion on folio 12a of Treatise M'gillah then resumes the discussion of Estér 1:3 and addresses the phrase חֵיל פָּרַס וּמָדַי, הַפַּרְתְּמִים "the armies of Persia and Media, the nobles..." http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Last Edited By: ProfBenTziyyon
02/02/09 14:28:21.
Edited 1 times.
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tyolilums |
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How do you write the plural form of mashiach in Hebrew?
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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tyolilums wrote:
Rashi translates the word חָרָשִׁים harashim as אוּמָּנִים ummanim "craftsmen", who are identified by the Talmud (answering its own question) as Rashi explains further:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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tyolilums |
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Thanks, I was trying to figure out how you knew T'hillim 105:15 and Divrei Hayamim Alef 16:22 had the plural form. When they add the 'my' ending it
confuses me how you know the base word is plural.
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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tyolilums wrote:
מְשִׁיחִי m'shihi is "my messiah" (see entries 5. and 6. in my online concordance), http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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tyolilums |
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I've been thinking about the term 'Christ', how Christians use it, and the origination of the word from the Hebrew, Mashiach, which means anointed
one.
The word 'Christian' only appears once in the Greek testament, in 1Peter. But right off the bat in Matthew 1:16 Jesus is called the Christ, it actually seems to become his last name or his name altogether, and in 16:16 this term is clarified to mean 'The Son of God'. And the followers of 'the Christ' are called Christians. The more I think about this, the more I'm confused about how a shift in a word happens like this. One, there has to be a shift in the meaning of the word, from being anointed with oil to being the Son of God, which I suppose may not be too far a stretch. Two, there has to be a shift in the idea that this term becomes what people are called, 'The Mashiach said this or The Mashiach did that….". Three, this term morphs into one person instead of applying to many. Four, this person has followers who take on the term. I suppose each Mashiach had their followers, so to speak. Great Rabbis tend to have followers who kind of take on their name, I think. Is there even a Hebrew word like 'Christian' to refer to people as 'mashiach"ians"'? Followers of the mashiachs? No. Everyone just uses the word 'Jewish', which, while they follow the teachings of the mashiachs they don't take the name of them or of God for that matter. Anyway, just rambling I know. The subject is fascinating and is never discussed. I don't know how you could ever begin to correct a switch in use like this. Even atheists and people of other religions use the term in the manner Christians do. |
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Netanel |
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Part of me has always wondered if early Christians - either completely oblivious to Hebrew, attempting to make a pun, or both -
mixed up and/or amalgamated the words Mashiyah (מָשִׁיחַ) and Moshiy'a (מוֹשִׁיעַ). Not that Yéshu could ever
accurately be described as a Moshiy'a (i.e. as applied to Otniél ben Q'naz in Shoftim 3:9) to the Y'hudim
either. But it wouldn't be too difficult for a group notorious for lack of attention to detail to make this mistake, and persist in it for nearly two
thousand years.
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UriYosef |
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ty,
I like your analytical approach, and know that it will lead you to discover the truth. As for the "morphing" of 'an anointed one' into 'Son of God', one can come up with various theories. The Hebrew term מָשִׁיחַ (mashi'ah), "an anointed one', is used in the Hebrew Bible for the מְלָכִים (m'lachim), "kings" of Israel/Judah and for the כֹּהֲנִים (kohanim), "(Aharonic) priests", who went through the process prescribed in the Hebrew Bible, as well as certain others, e.g., כּוֹרֶשׁ (koresh), "Cyrus", who were appointed by G-d to carry out specific missions and tasks. In several places within the Hebrew Bible a king of Israel is described as being regarded by G-d as if he were His son, e.g., King Solomon in 2 Samuel 7:14, King David in Psalms 2:7. So it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to posit that the authors of the GT used such references, albeit absurdly, as leverage for combining the two notions - 'an anointed one' and 'son of G-d' - into the Christian notion that the 'son of G-d' is THE 'anointed one'. The Hebrew Bible teaches that G-d is not a man and that He doesn't beget any physical children. The Hebrew Bible also teaches us about the proper process of anointing, and when compared with the GT accounts of yeshu's alleged 'anointment', one has to be blind to the facts to claim that he was properly anointed. Hence the absurdity of the Christian claim about yeshu., aside from the fact that he failed to qualify for the job of מָשִׁיחַ per the requirements specified in the Hebrew Bible. What do you think? UriYosef
Our raison d'être:
WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
Last Edited By: UriYosef
06/15/09 16:16:21.
Edited 4 times.
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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tyolilums wrote:
"in a wide sense, in the gospels, those among the Jews who favoured him, joined his party, became his adherents",but also notes that, already by the time of Acts, the term had morphed into a wider sense that included "all those who confess Yoshke as the messiah".But why would this be thought of as a "confession" − was it considered a crime? One also cannot help being struck by the similarity between μαθητής mathētēs (learner, pupil, disciple, student) and the proper noun Μαθθαῖος "Matthew" (claimed by christians to be a derivative of the Hebrew מָתַי matai or even מַתִּתְיָהוּ mattityahu). http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Last Edited By: ProfBenTziyyon
06/16/09 08:30:12.
Edited 2 times.
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tyolilums |
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I'm not familiar with the word, Moshiy'a. I've never heard of the 'Deeds of the Emissaries'. But that is interesting about the potential link between mathetes and Matthew. Here's what I think. I've spent close to 30 years in a profession that requires me to analyze facts objectively, identify problems, and provide solutions to fix problems. When I approach religion, I'm admittedly very much out of my element. I try to approach it as I do my profession. I study it, I attempt to pin point facts, (which often are difficult to identify in religion), and make a decision. But here the facts always seem to be changing, and everything is continually shifting. The more I study the more confusing it all seems to get, for me anything. And then there are the aspects of personal experiences and emotion that get tangled up in it all. If I find what I perceive to be a problem with something I immediately begin to think how to fix it. But some of this stuff seems impossible to correct. It becomes very frustrating sometimes. I think I'd rather not know problems exist, if they can't be corrected. You attempt to correct it by educating a select few. But I can't help looking at the big picture. If millions of people are teaching an error, I want it fixed. Clearly there has been a shift in the meaning of the word, mashiach/messiah. The position comes with an anointing process. Sometimes I get cofused though on how important the correct process is followed from a human point of view, compared to anointing from God. Tehillim 23 is the only psalms I've memorized in Hebrew todate, so I repeat it a lot and think about it. David states God annointed him. Although he was also annointed per Torah as well. So I don't know how much leverage you have approaching it from the standpoint of laying out specific rules that have to be followed for a proper anointing. However, if you take away that aspect of it, then you are faced with everyone claiming to be anointed by God. So I don't know. I suppose I'll do what I do best, and think about it all some more.
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UriYosef |
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ty,
I've never heard of the 'Deeds of the Emissaries'. It's another name for "Act of the Apostles", i.e., the Book of Acts in the GT. UriYosef
Our raison d'être:
WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!! |
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Netanel |
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tyolilums wrote: It appears 20 times in the Tanach. Throughout the N'viyim it is often applied to God, but it is also applied to those God raises up to save Israel from danger. D'varim 28:29 Shoftim 3:9, 15 (in reference to the Shoftim Otniél ben Q'naz, ahi Chalév, and Éhud ben Géra Ben Ha-Y'mini) Sh'muél Bét 22:3, 42 M'lachim Bét 13:5 (in reference to Yoash ben Y'hoahaz) Y'shayahu 19:20; 43:3, 11; 45:15, 21; 47:15; 49:26; 60:16 Yirm'yahu 14:8 Hoshéa 13:4 'Ovadyah 1:21 (pl. moshiyim/saviors) T'hillim 18:42; 106:21 N'hemyah 9:27 (pl. moshiyim/saviors) |
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Netanel wrote:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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Netanel |
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Thanks, Mordochai, I appreciate the correction. It appears the Even-Shoshan lists thirteen more cases under ישע.
Under that entry (which also lists the 20 aforementioned cases which appear under the מושיע entry) it shows a total of 33
instances.
D'varim 22:27 28:29 28:31 Shoftim 3:9 (re: Otniél ben Q'naz) 3:15 (re: Éhud ben Géra) 6:36 (Gid'on asks God to save Yisraél by his [Gid'on's] hand) 12:3 Shmuél Alef 10:19 11:3 14:39 Shmuél Bét 22:3 22:42 M'lachim Bét 13:5 Y'shayahu 19:20 43:3 43:11 45:15 45:21 47:15 49:26 60:16 63:8 Yirm'yahu 14:8 30:10 46:27 Hoshéa 13:4 'Ovadyah 1:21 Z'charyah 8:7 T'hillim 7:11 17:7 18:42 106:21 N'hemyah 9:27 |
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