I've asked this elsewhere with no answer. Maybe you can enlighten me here. When I was reading this week's portion, I was stumped a bit with a verse.
I read Rashi on it, but it didn't help. The "messianic" POV on the matter has muddled me up and not knowing Hebrew very well doesn't help.
Anyhow the statement is made when Yaakov is blessing Ephraim and Menasha. 48:19 says "But his father refused saying, 'I know, my son, I know; he too
will become a people, and he too will become great; yet his younger brother shall become greater than he, and his offspring['s fame] will fill the
nations." Can you help me with this one?
vayechi question
| Author | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|
 dawn6773 |
vayechi question |
Lead | |
|
Posts: 34 (01/07/09 15:29:31) |
|
||
|
Rabbi Daniel |
|||
|
Posts: 2538 (01/07/09 20:58:20) Moderator |
Did you read 48:18?
It's pretty straight forward. Otherwise you'll need to explain what in 48:19 is puzzling you. I don't know the messianic POV so that might be keeping me from understanding your question.
Please donate to the following ENDANGERED SPECIES!
Preciousness of life.
Family structure.
Family values.
G-dly values.
|
||
|
dawn6773 |
|||
|
Posts: 35 (01/07/09 23:37:39) |
Basically the messianic POV that I heard, was that this "filling the nations" was Ephraim becoming a part of the nations. That the people within
nations that have a desire for Judaism are actually the tribe of Ephraim...even if they cannot prove that they are Jews biologically. I've not seen the
word "fame" added before to the text. But it was there in parentheses in Stone's Tenach. One thing I heard was that this was a reference to
Moshiach. We never taught or believed this, but there were groups, I think called Ephraimites that built a belief system on this verse. Teachings from one
group have a way of being revealed to another and bringing confusion.
I know, it is so simple and basic. But, the poison keeps baffling me and making things hazy. Is it basically saying that Ephraim would have many children? His fame filling the nations? What is this? |
||
|
Rabbi Daniel |
|||
|
Posts: 2539 (01/08/09 21:54:53) Moderator |
Thanks for the explanation.
Menashe is the first born. Joseph positioned Menashe to Jacob's right so that he would get the better blessing. [Take it on faith at this point that the right side is better.] Jacob switched his hands and put his left hand on Menashe and his right hand on Ephraim, the younger. [All this is straight out of the verses.] Joseph jumped in telling Jacob he has his hands the wrong way. Menashe is the oldest. "48:19 says "But his father refused saying, 'I know, my son, I know; I know Menashe is the older and my left hand is on him. he too will become a people, and he too will become great; that was still about Menashe yet his younger brother Ephraim shall become greater than he, and his offspring will fill the nations." Now as far as "his offspring will fill the nations," since it makes NO sense what-so-ever for Jacob to be praising Ephraim that his seed will be assimilated and lost- after all, they were just praised for having been raised in Egypt and having still remained righteous- so the editor filled in a word for the verse to make sense. "his offspring['s fame] will fill the nations," Even though Menashe was the progenitor of 5 kings of Israel, Ephraim was the progenitor of Joshua whom is far more renown than the 5 kings and has fulfilled Jacob's word. They both had many children. But Ephraim was always a larger tribe than Menashe's and contributed more, [in a sense, (Joshua vs. the 5)] therefore Jacob wanted him to have the greater blessing.
Please donate to the following ENDANGERED SPECIES!
Preciousness of life.
Family structure.
Family values.
G-dly values.
|
||
|
dawn6773 |
|||
|
Posts: 38 (01/08/09 22:26:34) |
I wondered why assimilation would be rewarded. It didn't make sense.
I also found out from jhronline that Israel and Ephraim are used interchangeably and had to do with the northern kingdom which was scattered into Assyria. Ephraim/northern kingdom did fill the nations and will be brought back to the land when Moshiach comes. That they will be reunited and never divided again. Between the two of you, thanks. I appreciate your patience and clear answers. |
||
|
Rabbi Daniel |
|||
|
Posts: 2540 (01/09/09 01:04:10) Moderator |
The Northern Kingdom was called "Israel" while the Southern Kingdom was called "Judah."
It is in that context that "Ephraim" and "Israel" might be interchanged. Not with the entirety of the nation of Israel. While 9 other tribes were exiled with Ephraim, including Menashe, it is true that they all are sometimes referred to by "Ephraim." Could be that Jacob's words were not just a blessing but also foretelling a possible future. [Joshua 6:27, "So the LORD was with Joshua; and his fame was in all the land/world."]
Please donate to the following ENDANGERED SPECIES!
Preciousness of life.
Family structure.
Family values.
G-dly values.
|
||
|
ProfBenTziyyon |
|||
|
Posts: 1622 (01/09/09 01:09:14) |
dawn6773 wrote:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Last Edited By: ProfBenTziyyon
01/11/09 11:02:13.
Edited 1 times.
|
||
|
Rabbi Daniel |
|||
|
Posts: 2541 (01/11/09 02:57:52) Moderator |
Yes, that is what I said just without attacking the poster.
Please donate to the following ENDANGERED SPECIES!
Preciousness of life.
Family structure.
Family values.
G-dly values.
|
||
|
dawn6773 |
|||
|
Posts: 42 (01/11/09 03:42:28) |
ProfBenTziyyon - Thanks. I didn't understand it when I read that. Thank you for putting it before me again. I see it now.
|
||
Quick Reply
