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My Recent Posts · (01/11/09

Most (if not all) GTs will state that this was added at a later time and is not authoritative

If they are added on, then what are they doing in a book that is supposed to represent the most reliable word of God?

The one that I attended that accepted this passage, would also say that if you were stupid enough to test their god that way, you would die and it would be your fault.

Ok, fine, presuming Zero does not accept it as authorative, then we have a even better verse

John 14:11-14
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves
Verily, verily, I(Jesus) say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Here Jesus clearly states that believers would be able to do even greater miracles than he did, amongst which the healing of the sick has been the most common stated miracle in the NT. Like I said, either Jesus's promise is not true or that Zero is not a "true" believer of Jesus.

My Recent Posts · (01/12/09

From "Zero":
Is there not even one thing in judaism which pertains to spiritual warfare?

Pirke Avos: 5:8 (alternately, 5:6):

"Ten things were created on the Sabbath eve at twilight. They are: the mouth of the earth [which swallowed Korach and his co-conspirators] (Numbers 16:32), the mouth of the well [which accompanied Israel in the desert], the mouth of the donkey [which rebuked Balaam] (ibid., 22:28), the rainbow, the Manna, the staff [of Moses], the shamir worm, the script [of the Torah], the inscription [on the Tablets of the Ten Commandments], and the Tablets. Some say: also destructive spirits, the burial place of Moses, and the ram of our father Abraham [which he slaughtered in place of Isaac] (Genesis 22:13). And some say, also tongs -- which are made with tongs."

My Recent Posts · (01/12/09

Seychel, back on November 21st I wrote to you:

Welcome to the forum. Might I suggest you review our rules for posting: Rules of the Counter Missionary Forum

I don't know if you are Jewish or not, but one of our rules (number 3) states:

Non-Jews are free to ask questions about Judaism but non-Jews attempting to teach Judaism will have their posts edited or removed. Such posts are misleading.
I tell you of this rule since you referenced the Zohar, a very esoteric and easily misunderstood Jewish source.

Many Chrstians confuse the concept of the death of the righteous atoning as an example with the idea of human sacrifice (aka "Jsus died for your sins"). I don't know if you are Jewish or not, learned or not -- this is not a warning, more of an explanation. This is a counter missionary forum and we must be very careful when we speak of Jewish concepts that they can't be mis-used.

Again, welcome to the forum.

You did not respond to my post and you continue to quote Jewish sources. Your quote indicates that you are not Jewish and that you are violating the rules.

Pirkei Avot 5:6:

6. Ten things were created at twilight of Shabbat eve. These are: the mouth of the earth [that swallowed Korach]; the mouth of [Miriam's] well; the mouth of [Balaam's] ass; the rainbow; the manna; [Moses'] staff; the shamir; the writing, the inscription and the tablets [of the Ten Commandments]. Some say also the burial place of Moses and the ram of our father Abraham. And some say also the spirits of destruction as well as the original tongs, for tongs are made with tongs.

See any difference in this translation and yours?

The issue here is are there "evil spirits" -- and the answer (in Judaism) is yes and no. There are evil spirits (inclinations) within each of us human beings. G-d can use messengers (melech) to tempt us to evil, but these messengers are not themselves evil. This is very different from the Chrstian idea that there are devils and demons who wreak havoc and G-d doesn't (or can't) do anything about it. In Torah we are told that we CAN control our evil inclinations. When bad things happen to us it is up to us to respond with mitzvot and righteousness.

In Pirkei Avot 5:6 the word is mazzikim. This word means "harmful beings" -- and one can again see them as humans who do us harm, or as messengers of G-d who test us by doing harm. No where in the Talmud are we told that shedim or mazzikim are independent beings "out there," or if they are just psychological "demons" that drive people.

My Recent Posts · (01/12/09

Thanks Sophiee for your explanation here. This last one seems to sum up the answer we have been dancing around here.

My Recent Posts · (01/12/09

Sophiee1 wrote:
Take the story in the Torah about G-d "hardening Pahroah's heart" against Moses. Did G-d change Pharoah's mind? Nope. Pharoah had free will! In this instance G-d simply gave Pharoah the internal feeling of strength (backbone) to do what he was INCLINED to do already, which was to deny the Jews the freedom to leave Egypt.

Hi Sophiee1,

I once asked this question of a religious Jew and received a slightly different response. He told me that G-d indeed gives us free will to choose and do as we please, but in some instances, as punishment, he can take away our free will temporarily. He argued that in the case of Pharaoh, Pharaoh was so egregiously evil that G-D punished him and temporarily took away his free will and hardened his heart against Israel, in the end proving His superiority over all things.

Is this an acceptable explanation or maybe I misunderstood?

My Recent Posts · (01/12/09

:It is an acceptable understanding -- but as R' Aryeh Kaplan put it:

"A person may occasionally be so wicked that the ultimate benefit of humanity requires that the choice be taken away from him, and that he lose the power to repent.

"I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and thus multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt" (Exodus 7:3).

In all such cases, G-d does not initially decree that the person be wicked, but once his wickedness surpasses certain bounds, free choice to repent is taken away from him. It is thus taught that G-d first warns the sinner three times, but if the warning is not heeded, then the gates of repentance may be closed."

This point of view is supported by a Midrash:

To which Rabbi Shimon b. Lakish replied: "Let the mouths of the heretics be stopped up ... when G-d warns a man once, twice, and even a third time, and he still does not repent, then does G-d close his heart against repentance so that He should exact vengeance from him for his sins. Thus it was with the wicked Pharaoh. Since G-d sent five times to him and he took no notice, G-d then said: 'You have stiffened your neck and hardened your heart; well, I will add to your uncleanness.'" (Midrash Rabbah, Exodus 13:3)

In a nutshell this school of thought says that hardening Pharaoh's heart was a punishment. Pharaoh had closed his heart to Moses' pleas and G-d's commands -- and so his punishment was that he lost the ability to listen to his own heart -- it was unfeeling.

I like Ramban's approach (from Torah.org):

From Torah.org:

Quote:

The Ramban (Nachmanides) and the Seforno both offer the following explanation (the Ramban actually provides two answers, saying that both are true). It is clear, they say, that Pharoah did not want to repent. When the Torah recounts the first five plagues, it does not say that G-d hardened Pharoah's heart - only that it was hardened, meaning that he did it himself. If at any time Pharoah had desired repentance, then he certainly would have been given the opportunity to do so.

Why, then, did G-d harden Pharoah's heart? Because after being struck with the first five plagues, Pharoah would have been forced to release the Israelites not because it was G-d's will, but because he was unable to withstand further punishment. He would have been unable to resist, as his servants said to him, "do you not yet realize that Egypt is lost?" [10:7] And this, concludes the Seforno, is not repentance at all.

If last week's Dvar Torah discussed free will as the distinction between human beings and other creatures, the Seforno this week helps to point out what - in Jewish philosophy - "free will" really entails. For as one subscriber quite correctly pointed out, animals do many things only "because they feel like it," such as playing games. "And there are indications that cats," continued the writer, "will hunt or not because they feel like it - as long as they have sufficient food." All of this is true.

The Jewish understanding of free will, on the other hand, is not our ability to choose between any two random actions. Rather it is the opportunity to decide for ourselves whether to do good, or bad. My family once owned a cat that preferred hunting over playing with yarn. I will save you the details; suffice it to say that it brought an unusual assortment of small trophies home through the cat door. Now did my father punish the cat? Of course not - it's "the predatory instinct" that "comes naturally" to all cats in some degree. But were we to see a child harming an animal, we would say that he is "being cruel", and must be taught to be kind.

My Recent Posts · (01/12/09

I live about 35 miles from Ernest Angley's Grace Cathedral.

This guy is one of the forerunners, if not the creator of all this POWER OF JEEEEEEE SSSSUSSSSSS mumbo-jumbo.

Thirty five years ago a friend and I happened to be in the area of his "palace" I watched no less than twenty-five people get off a bus and walk into the back door of the place.

In the mean time stage hands (deacons or lay ministers or whatever they want to call them) began unloading wheelchairs, crutches, walkers and the like, and bringing them in.

Completely against my own better judgement, I had to go in and see what was going on. Sure enough, all of those people from the bus were the people he HEALED that day.

He healed them in the name of the father; in the name of the son; in the name of that ghostly dude; but more importantly, in the name of the big fat wad of cash he stuck in his pocket.

'Nuff said.

My Recent Posts · (01/13/09

Ah, the well known placebo effect, no doubt aided by the scam effect.

My Recent Posts · (01/13/09

Thirty five years ago a friend and I happened to be in the area of his "palace" I watched no less than twenty-five people get off a bus and walk into the back door of the place.
In the mean time stage hands (deacons or lay ministers or whatever they want to call them) began unloading wheelchairs, crutches, walkers and the like, and bringing them in.

Completely against my own better judgement, I had to go in and see what was going on. Sure enough, all of those people from the bus were the people he HEALED that day.

I wonder if you ever heard of James Randi. I really recommend you check out his video on youtube, where he exposes these so called faith healers for what they truly are.....charlatans

Here are two good examples

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zl3I5y4cZc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yHE9Y1bdA

My Recent Posts · (01/13/09

Josephus, Antiquities 8:

5. Now the sagacity and wisdom which God had bestowed on Solomon was so great, that he exceeded the ancients; insomuch that he was no way inferior to the Egyptians, who are said to have been beyond all men in understanding; nay, indeed, it is evident that their sagacity was very much inferior to that of the king's.

He also excelled and distinguished himself in wisdom above those who were most eminent among the Hebrews at that time for shrewdness; those I mean were Ethan, and Heman, and Chalcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol. He also composed books of odes and songs a thousand and five, of parables and similitudes three thousand; for he spake a parable upon every sort of tree, from the hyssop to the cedar; and in like manner also about beasts, about all sorts of living creatures, whether upon the earth, or in the seas, or in the air; for he was not unacquainted with any of their natures, nor omitted inquiries about them, but described them all like a philosopher, and demonstrated his exquisite knowledge of their several properties.

God also enabled him to learn that skill which expels demons, which is a science useful and sanative to men. He composed such incantations also by which distempers are alleviated. And he left behind him the manner of using exorcisms, by which they drive away demons, so that they never return; and this method of cure is of great force unto this day; for I have seen a certain man of my own country, whose name was Eleazar, releasing people that were demoniacal in the presence of Vespasian, and his sons, and his captains, and the whole multitude of his soldiers.

The manner of the cure was this: He put a ring that had a Foot of one of those sorts mentioned by Solomon to the nostrils of the demoniac, after which he drew out the demon through his nostrils; and when the man fell down immediately, he abjured him to return into him no more, making still mention of Solomon, and reciting the incantations which he composed. And when Eleazar would persuade and demonstrate to the spectators that he had such a power, he set a little way off a cup or basin full of water, and commanded the demon, as he went out of the man, to overturn it, and thereby to let the spectators know that he had left the man;

and when this was done, the skill and wisdom of Solomon was shown very manifestly: for which reason it is, that all men may know the vastness of Solomon's abilities, and how he was beloved of God, and that the extraordinary virtues of every kind with which this king was endowed may not be unknown to any people under the sun for this reason, I say, it is that we have proceeded to speak so largely of these matters.

My Recent Posts · (01/13/09

Seychel, for the third time I'm asking if you are Jewish. If you don't answer my question I am going to delete any of your posts that contain Jewish references. Please read the forum rules.

Josephus was a Jew, but he was a Jew who became a favored Roman. So when reading Josephus you must keep a number of things in mind: his audience (the Romans), his use of midrash, and later interpolations (changes made by scribes which include forgeries). . .

In the case of this bit about Solomon having the ability to control demons, this comes from Hellenistic stories -- which apparently Josephus or some later Chrstian (very Hellenistic / Roman) added.

Don't mistake someone who happens to be a Jew with someone who is an educated Jew and an acceptable Jewish source. You might as well quote Groucho Marx or Karl Marx on Judaism (they were both Jews, but certainly not recognized Jewish sources.

My Recent Posts · (01/13/09

Good to see you again!

Apparently you live now near my hometown.

Yes, Ernest Angely is a fake, for sure. Yes also, as it happens, I have personal background with the real thing. Spiritual healing and "spiritual warfare" are two completely different things. Please see also my next post.

Best,

My Recent Posts · (01/13/09

I'll have to recreate the text I meant to post, from scratch, and may not be able to post it here until Friday the 16th, which is the next time I'll have Net access.

In the meantime, if CC is interested in exploring "the real thing," I regard these authors as reliable, on that topic: D. Elton Trueblood; Morton Kelsey; Ambrose Worrall. There are others, but these are good for a start.

My Recent Posts · (01/13/09

Captain Chaos 64 wrote:
I live about 35 miles from Ernest Angley's Grace Cathedral.

This guy is one of the forerunners, if not the creator of all this POWER OF JEEEEEEE SSSSUSSSSSS mumbo-jumbo.

Thirty five years ago a friend and I happened to be in the area of his "palace" I watched no less than twenty-five people get off a bus and walk into the back door of the place.

In the mean time stage hands (deacons or lay ministers or whatever they want to call them) began unloading wheelchairs, crutches, walkers and the like, and bringing them in.

Completely against my own better judgement, I had to go in and see what was going on. Sure enough, all of those people from the bus were the people he HEALED that day.

He healed them in the name of the father; in the name of the son; in the name of that ghostly dude; but more importantly, in the name of the big fat wad of cash he stuck in his pocket.

'Nuff said.

Captain Chaos, you've gotta read this. It is Harmon Leon's experience with Benny Hinn, the faith healer.
http://www.thewavemag.com...ticle.php?articleid=23855
Here's a sample

"Yes, it's me! I'm the one you were sensing with the problem in the spine!" I scream, ready to be REBUKED!
Without missing a beat, the hand of Hinn graces my forehead.

"I REBUKE IT!"

Unfortunately, I don't fall backwards. Maybe he didn't give me a big enough dose of Jesus.

This guy is so funny.

My Recent Posts · (01/14/09

Hi,

I don't believe my initial question has been answered.

Why do evil spiritual beings fear the name of Jesus?

Many missionaries talk about the myriad and dark spiritual activities in Southeast Asia and it is only through the name of Jesus that they are able to prevail.

My Recent Posts · (01/14/09

ProfBenTziyyon wrote:

God Himself answers your nonsense in D'varim 13:2-6 which you have obviously never read and so I reproduce what they say here for your information:

כִּֽי־יָק֤וּם בְּקִרְבְּךָ֙ נָבִ֔יא א֖וֹ חֹלֵ֣ם חֲל֑וֹם וְנָתַ֥ן אֵלֶ֛יךָ א֖וֹת א֥וֹ מוֹפֵֽת׃
וּבָ֤א הָאוֹת֙ וְהַמּוֹפֵ֔ת אֲשֶׁר־דִּבֶּ֥ר אֵלֶ֖יךָ לֵאמֹ֑ר נֵֽלְכָ֞ה אַֽחֲרֵ֨י אֱלֹהִ֧ים אֲחֵרִ֛ים אֲשֶׁ֥ר לֹֽא־יְדַעְתָּ֖ם וְנָֽעָבְדֵֽם׃
לֹ֣א תִשְׁמַ֗ע אֶל־דִּבְרֵי֙ הַנָּבִ֣יא הַה֔וּא א֛וֹ אֶל־חוֹלֵ֥ם הַחֲל֖וֹם הַה֑וּא כִּ֣י מְנַסֶּ֞ה יְיָ֤ אֱלֹֽהֵיכֶם֙ אֶתְכֶ֔ם לָדַ֗עַת הֲיִשְׁכֶ֤ם אֹֽהֲבִים֙ אֶת־יְיָ֣ אֱלֹֽהֵיכֶ֔ם בְּכָל־לְבַבְכֶ֖ם וּבְכָל־נַפְשְׁכֶֽם׃
אַֽחֲרֵ֨י יְיָ֧ אֱלֹהֵיכֶ֛ם תֵּלֵ֖כוּ וְאֹת֣וֹ תִירָ֑אוּ וְאֶת־מִצְוֹתָ֤יו תִּשְׁמֹ֨רוּ֙ וּבְקֹל֣וֹ תִּשְׁמָ֨עוּ֙ וְאֹת֥וֹ תַעֲבֹ֖דוּ וּב֥וֹ תִדְבָּקֽוּן׃
וְהַנָּבִ֣יא הַה֡וּא א֣וֹ חֹלֵם֩ הַֽחֲל֨וֹם הַה֜וּא יוּמָ֗ת כִּ֣י דִבֶּר־סָ֠רָה֠ עַל־יְיָ֨ אֱלֹֽהֵיכֶ֜ם הַמּוֹצִ֥יא אֶתְכֶ֣ם ׀ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ מִצְרַ֗יִם וְהַפֹּֽדְךָ֙ מִבֵּ֣ית עֲבָדִ֔ים לְהַֽדִּֽיחֲךָ֙ מִן־הַדֶּ֔רֶךְ אֲשֶׁ֧ר צִוְּךָ֛ יְיָ֥ אֱלֹהֶ֖יךָ לָלֶ֣כֶת בָּ֑הּ וּבִֽעַרְתָּ֥ הָרָ֖ע מִקִּרְבֶּֽךָ׃
D'varim XIII: ²If a prophet or one who has dreamt a dream arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,
³and the sign or the wonder that he said to you happens and he says, "Let's go after strange gods (which you never knew) and let's worship them",
⁴you are not to take any notice of that prophet's words, or of that dreamer of a dream's words -- Adonai, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love Adonai, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
⁵You are to follow Adonai, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, pay attention to His voice, worship Him, and cling to Him.
⁶And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream is to be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about Adonai, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to deflect you from the way in which Adonai, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from among you.

Indeed I have read of many people who have seen visions of Jesus sitting on the throne of Heaven. They are really passionate and joyful when they seen Him for God is with Jesus also.
Please tell me then what is it you think they have seen?

My Recent Posts · (01/14/09

Zero wrote:
Hi,

I don't believe my initial question has been answered.

Why do evil spiritual beings fear the name of Jsus?

Your question was answered many times by many posters.

Evil spirits don't fear Jsus because Jsus most likely never existed. If he did he was a normal human being just like any other.

There are no such things as devils and demons. G-d created good AND evil. What we see as evil serves a purpose -- it is to test us to see if we'll succumb to the evil or overcome it (read Genesis 4:7).

Your Jsus is about as powerful as Ze-us, or Dionysiu-s or any other false god. Do you finally understand the answer now? The question is an oxymoron.

My Recent Posts · (01/14/09

Zero wrote:
I don't believe my initial question has been answered.

Why do evil spiritual beings fear the name of Jesus?

Many missionaries talk about the myriad and dark spiritual activities in Southeast Asia and it is only through the name of Jesus that they are able to prevail.

It appears to me that you have either a reading comprehension problem or you ignore our replies to your missionary nonsense.

You have failed to prove the existence of those so-called "evil spiritual beings". Therefore, your claims have no factual validity.

UriYosef

My Recent Posts · (01/14/09

Indeed I have read of many people who have seen visions of Jesus sitting on the throne of Heaven. They are really passionate and joyful when they seen Him for God is with Jesus also.
Please tell me then what is it you think they have seen?

And I have read of folks who have seen Elvis. Yes. They have been very passionate and joyful to. And this means what?
What has this Jesus looked like? The typical paintings and statues? If folks are seeing that image, there is much to really wonder about isn't there?

Please pay attention to what folks are saying here to you and really pay attention to the Torah--not misguided interpretations of it.

Shalom,
Gretta

My Recent Posts · (01/14/09

Quote:
"Please tell me then what is it you think they have seen? "

A hallucination. The mind is a powerful thing. I have seen many things and people in my dreams. Does that make them real?

Zero, you have to "come out of your little world" and realize that the things you are claiming, are also being claimed by many "other followings". There is NOTHING UNIQUE ABOUT IT.

Now if you want to learn about something unique, then you should learn the Hebrew language. It is there that you will find things you never have seen before in your life. It is one of the main reasons that so many xtians have converted to Judaism. Because they now see the truth through the Hebrew language.

As opposed to "visions" and "miracles", which Sophiee and others were kind enough to show you mean absolutely nothing and we were forewarned of by G-d Himself thousands of years ago. You aren't bringing anything new into the picture.

If you believe in all of that "stuff", then I suggest you have fun talking with others who believe as you do. You won't find anything even close to your beliefs here.

Been there, done that. Thousands of years ago.

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