Short story on angels

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TheXian		#21	[-]
Posts: 16 (10/09/09 23:47:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I really wish G-d would just make it 100% clear on what I need to do to honor Him. It'd make everything so much easier.
TheXian		#22	[-]
Posts: 19 (10/11/09 21:02:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ok, well after church I asked my pastor of things things, and now have more questions. Explain Job in your terms to me. The first chapter has Satan written all in it. Also Issiah 14 has the fallen "morning star". That word is a word made up by Roman poets, but that does not take away the meaning of "morning star". "Evening star" is satan's downfall. Above you compared him to the king of Babylon and the pagan god helel, but why? Why was he compared to a pagan god of the sun? Was he bright and warming? Did he reign with good crop yeilds (light)? Or does he bring sin, corruption, and the fall of babylon? Also i must ask, since this is MessiahTruth, when J-sus walked around preforming miracles, who gave him this power? The only options are Satan and God. If its God, then why do you not proclaim him as the messiah? If it is Satan, why do you not believe in his existence? (and im screwed, because that means ive worshiped evil for years)
UriYosef		#23	[-]
Posts: 1989 (10/11/09 22:10:31) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	TheXian wrote: I really wish G-d would just make it 100% clear on what I need to do to honor Him. It'd make everything so much easier. He does. That "blueprint" is known as the Hebrew Bible, in which are outlined the rules for Gentiles. These are now known as the Seven Laws of Noah, and we've provided you with seveal resources where you can learn more about these. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
TheXian		#24	[-]
Posts: 20 (10/11/09 22:50:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	UriYosef wrote: TheXian wrote: I really wish G-d would just make it 100% clear on what I need to do to honor Him. It'd make everything so much easier. He does. That "blueprint" is known as the Hebrew Bible, in which are outlined the rules for Gentiles. These are now known as the Seven Laws of Noah, and we've provided you with seveal resources where you can learn more about these. UriYosef But what about all the other people that say no, i need to do this and this. I think he does it intentionally as a test. To find out if we will search hard enough though this cloud of sin to see Him
UriYosef		#25	[-]
Posts: 1991 (10/11/09 23:07:19) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	TheXian wrote: But what about all the other people that say no, i need to do this and this. I think he does it intentionally as a test. To find out if we will search hard enough though this cloud of sin to see Him This reflects a Christian perspective. According to the Hebrew Bible (and, of course, Judaism) life is not about this Christian obsession with a "cloud of sin". Our life is about joyfully pleasing God by following his commands - the Torah for Jews and the Seven Laws of Noah for Gentiles - and about making this world a better place for all of God's creations. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
Sophiee1		#26	[-]
Posts: 12767 (10/12/09 06:13:45) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	TheXian wrote: Ok, well after church I asked my pastor of things things, and now have more questions. Not surprising. Your pastor doesn't really have any of the answers. TheXian wrote: Explain Job to me. The first chapter has Satan written all in it. Job was written by Moses and is an ancient story (found in Writings) about a man who is tested by G-d. Yes indeed "the Satan" (HaSatan) aka "the Adversary" is mentioned throughout Job. Adversaries can be human or non-human and in the story of Job the adversary is non-human. Read the story carefully. Notice that NOWHERE is HaSatan in conflict with G-d. HaSatan is acting as a "prosecuting attorney" (if you will) to test Job. There is no devil who is a demi-god who fights against G-d. We had a thread on this once before entitled Help with Job... . From a post by the Professor in that thread: It should always be remembered that אִיּוֹב (Iyyov) is a parable rather than a true story. It tells the story of an imaginary, "perfect" man who is tested to the very limits of human endurance by the satan - with God's approval. Consider the evidence: 1. There is no attempt to identify who the eponymous hero אִיּוֹב (Iyyov) is - no genealogy such as most other books of Scripture open with... it doesn't even say whether he was a Jew or not; 2. the country he is said to come from (אֶרֶץ עוּץ - "Utz country") is fictional; 3. the very language it is written in is the language of a story: it begins אִישׁ הָיָה בְאֶרֶץ עוּץ אִיּוֹב שְׁמוֹ "Once upon a time there lived a man in Utz country - Iyyov was his name..." and it ends with all Iyyov's possessions and children having been replaced and the closing words are וַיְחִי אִיּוֹב אַחֲרֵי זֹאת מֵאָה וְאַרְבָּעִים שָׁנָה, וַיִּרְאֶה אֶת בָּנָיו וְאֶת בְּנֵי בָנָיו אַרְבָּעָה דֹּרוֹת; וַיָּמָת אִיּוֹב זָקֵן וּשְׂבַע יָמִים׃ "Iyyov lived 140 years after this: he lived to see his children and grandchildren - four generations; then Iyyov died, an old man - he had lived a long and full life" which is about as close to "and they lived happily ever after" as you can get; and 4. the character of Iyyov is a little too "perfect" to be believable - he is "too good to be true". Who can imagine anyone, no matter how pious, upon hearing that his entire family has been wiped out by a freak of nature and all his wealth gone, responding עָרֹם יָצָתִי מִבֶּטֶן אִמִּי, וְעָרֹם אָשׁוּב שָׁמָּה; יְיָ נָתַן וַייָ לָקָח, יְהִי שֵׁם יְיָ מְבֹרָךְ - "I emerged naked [i.e. devoid of possessions] from my mother's belly and I will return there naked; Adonai gave and now Adonai has taken it all away - oh, how blessed is Adonai's name!"? 5. and finally, are we seriously expected to believe that a *just* and *merciful* God would allow such appalling suffering to be inflicted on such a "perfect and upright man who feared God and turned his back on evil" merely to settle a bet between Himself and "the satan"? סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12 Last Edited By: Sophiee1 10/12/09 06:31:08. Edited 1 times.
Sophiee1		#27	[-]
Posts: 12768 (10/12/09 06:24:01) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	TheXian wrote: Also Issiah 14 has the fallen "morning star". That word is a word made up by Roman poets, but that does not take away the meaning of "morning star". "Evening star" is satan's downfall. Above you compared him to the king of Babylon and the pagan god helel, but why? Why was he compared to a pagan god of the sun? Was he bright and warming? Did he reign with good crop yeilds (light)? Or does he bring sin, corruption, and the fall of babylon. Don't translate it as "morning star." Think of it as a name -- the name of an ancient Babylonian (pagan) god named Hel-el. The prophet Isaiah is speaking of the downfall of Babylon and saying that as the Babylonian Empire falls so too falls its Emperor and so too falls its false gods, including Hel-el. There is no use of the word "satan" in Isaiah 14. Read the chapter in context and the meaning is clear: Isaiah 14:4 And you shall bear this parable against the king of Babylon. . . A parable about the king of Babylon. Says it right there, doesn't it? I realize that what you are being told here is very different from what your church teaches. The dualism of Chrstianity (two gods -- one good one bad) is pagan, taken primarily from Zoroatri-asm. You have a lot of questions and that is good. We're more than happy to answer them. There is a big problem, though, and it is one only you can decide how to handle. Do you really want to know the answers? What you will learn here will make you realize how false Chrstianity is, what a house of cards it rests upon. If you want your questions answered we'll answer them -- but it probably will result in your leaving Chrstianity or leaving here with hurt feelings and a shaken "faith." If you understand that we have no desire to upset you or even change your theology -- we are simply educators of the truth -- then keep asking questions. Just know where this is heading. If you'd like to read Isaiah 14 with the commentary of Rashi (a great Jewish sage) theJudaica Press translation with his commentary is online. The translator chose the words "morning star" for his translation and references Ven-us (which was another name of the pagan goddess named for the "morning star" aka the planet worshipped as Hel-el, Ven-us and by other names, too). סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
ProfBenTziyyon		#28	[-]
Posts: 2472 (10/12/09 06:59:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	There is another interpretation of Y'shayahu 14:12 which I find much more convincing. Daniyyél 4:25-34 records that.... כֹּ֣לָּא מְּטָ֔א עַל־נְבֽוּכַדְנֶצַּ֖ר מַלְכָּֽא׃ לִקְצָ֥ת יַרְחִ֖ין תְּרֵֽי־עֲשַׂ֑ר עַל־הֵיכַ֧ל מַלְכוּתָ֛א דִּ֥י בָבֶ֖ל מְהַלֵּ֥ךְ הֲוָֽה׃ עָנֵ֤ה מַלְכָּא֙ וְאָמַ֔ר הֲלָ֥א דָא־הִ֖יא בָּבֶ֣ל רַבְּתָ֑א דִּֽי־אֲנָ֤ה בֱנַיְתַהּ֙ לְבֵ֣ית מַלְכ֔וּ בִּתְקַ֥ף חִסְנִ֖י וְלִיקָ֥ר הַדְרִֽי׃ ע֗וֹד מִלְּתָא֙ בְּפֻ֣ם מַלְכָּ֔א קָ֖ל מִן־שְׁמַיָּ֣א נְפַ֑ל לָ֤ךְ אָֽמְרִין֙ נְבוּכַדְנֶצַּ֣ר מַלְכָּ֔א מַלְכוּתָ֖ה עֲדָ֥ת מִנָּֽךְ׃ וּמִן־אֲנָשָׁא֩ לָ֨ךְ טָֽרְדִ֜ין וְֽעִם־חֵיוַ֧ת בָּרָ֣א מְדֹרָ֗ךְ עִשְׂבָּ֤א כְתוֹרִין֙ לָ֣ךְ יְטַֽעֲמ֔וּן וְשִׁבְעָ֥ה עִדָּֽנִ֖ין יַחְלְפ֣וּן עֲלָ֑ךְ עַ֣ד דִּֽי־תִנְדַּ֗ע דִּֽי־שַׁלִּ֤יט עִלָּאָה֙ בְּמַלְכ֣וּת אֲנָשָׁ֔א וּלְמַן־דִּ֥י יִצְבֵּ֖א יִתְּנִנַּֽהּ׃ בַּהּ־שַׁעֲתָ֗א מִלְּתָא֘ סָ֣פַת עַל־נְבֽוּכַדְנֶצַּר֒ וּמִן־אֲנָשָׁ֣א טְרִ֔יד וְעִשְׂבָּ֤א כְתוֹרִין֙ יֵאכֻ֔ל וּמִטַּ֥ל שְׁמַיָּ֖א גִּשְׁמֵ֣הּ יִצְטַבַּ֑ע עַ֣ד דִּ֥י שַׂעְרֵ֛הּ כְּנִשְׁרִ֥ין רְבָ֖ה וְטִפְר֥וֹהִי כְצִפֲּרִֽין׃ וְלִקְצָ֣ת יֽוֹמַיָּא֩ אֲנָ֨ה נְבֽוּכַדְנֶצַּ֜ר עַיְנַ֣י ׀ לִשְׁמַיָּ֣א נִטְלֵ֗ת וּמַנְדְּעִי֙ עֲלַ֣י יְת֔וּב וּלְעִלָּאָה בָּֽרְכֵ֔ת וּלְחַ֥י עָֽלְמָ֖א שַׁבְּחֵ֣ת וְהַדְּרֵ֑ת דִּ֤י שָׁלְטָנֵהּ֙ שָׁלְטָ֣ן עָלַ֔ם וּמַלְכוּתֵ֖הּ עִם־דָּ֥ר וְדָֽר׃ וְכָל־דָּֽיְרֵ֤י אַרְעָא֙ כְּלָ֣ה חֲשִׁיבִ֔ין וּֽכְמִצְבְּיֵ֗הּ עָבֵד֙ בְּחֵ֣יל שְׁמַיָּ֔א וְדָֽיְרֵ֖י אַרְעָ֑א וְלָ֤א אִיתַי֙ דִּֽי־יְמַחֵ֣א בִידֵ֔הּ וְיֵ֥אמַר לֵ֖הּ מָ֥ה עֲבַֽדְתְּ׃ בֵּהּ־זִמְנָ֞א מַנְדְּעִ֣י ׀ יְת֣וּב עֲלַ֗י וְלִיקַ֨ר מַלְכוּתִ֜י הַדְרִ֤י וְזִוִי֙ יְת֣וּב עֲלַ֔י וְלִ֕י הַדָּֽבְרַ֥י וְרַבְרְבָנַ֖י יְבַע֑וֹן וְעַל־מַלְכוּתִ֣י הָתְקְנַ֔ת וּרְב֥וּ יַתִּירָ֖ה ה֥וּסֲפַת לִֽי׃ כְּעַ֞ן אֲנָ֣ה נְבֻֽכַדְנֶצַּ֗ר מְשַׁבַּ֨ח וּמְרוֹמֵ֤ם וּמְהַדַּר֙ לְמֶ֣לֶךְ שְׁמַיָּ֔א דִּ֤י כָל־מַֽעֲבָד֨וֹהִי֙ קְשֹׁו֔ט וְאֹֽרְחָתֵ֖הּ דִּ֑ין וְדִי֙ מַהְלְכִ֣ין בְּגֵוָ֔ה יָכִ֖ל לְהַשְׁפָּלָֽה׃ ²⁵All this happened to King N'vuchadnetzar: ²⁶Twelve months later he was walking on top of the royal palace of Bavel. ²⁷The king exclaimed and said, "Is this not the great Bavel, which I built as a royal palace with the strength of my power and for the honour of my glory?" ²⁸The word was still in the king's mouth when a voice fell from heaven [which said], "They say this to you, King N'vuchadnetzar: 'Your kingdom has turned away from you. ²⁹They will banish you from men and your dwelling will be with wild animals; they will feed you grass like cattle and seven periods will pass over you, until you acknowledge that the Most High rules over the kingdom of man and He gives it to whomever He wishes'." ³⁰Immediately, the decree was fulfilled upon N'vuchadnetzar: he was banished from men, he ate grass like cattle and his body was drenched with the dew of the heavens until his hair grew like the feathers of eagles and his nails like the claws of birds. ³¹But at the end of the seven years, I, N'vuchadnetzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my understanding returned to me; I blessed the Most High and I praised and glorified Him Who lives to Eternity − Whose dominion is an eternal dominion and Whose kingdom is with every generation. ³²[I said:] "All the inhabitants of the earth are like nothing compared to Him and He does with the host of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth according to His will; no-one can hold back His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?' ³³At that time, my understanding was restored to me; I returned to the glory of my kingdom and my splendour was restored to me; my leaders and my dignitaries sought me out and I was established in my kingship and excessive greatness was added to me. ³⁴Now, I, N'vuchadnetzar, do praise, exalt and glorify the King of heaven, Whose deeds are all true, Whose ways are just and Who can humble those who walk in pride!" In this passage, Daniyyél records how God humbled Nebuchadnezzar until he was forced to recognise God's authority over him. This was what the prophet Y'shayahu had been referring to when he said with biting sarcasm about N'vuchadnetzar אֵ֛יךְ נָפַ֥לְתָּ מִשָּׁמַ֖יִם הֵילֵ֣ל בֶּן־שָׁ֑חַר נִגְדַּ֣עְתָּ לָאָ֔רֶץ חוֹלֵ֖שׁ עַל־גּוֹיִֽם׃ "Oh, how you have fallen from the height of your splendour, Heilel [Venus], Morning Star! Oh, how you have been cut down to earth, you conqueror of nations!" The clue to Y'shayahu 14:12 is to be found earlier in the same chapter in verse 4, which tells us that what follows is a tirade against the king of Babylonia (i.e. N'vuchadnetzar). http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
UriYosef		#29	[-]
Posts: 1994 (10/12/09 10:09:36) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	TheXian wrote: Explain Job in your terms to me. The first chapter has Satan written all in it. Also Issiah 14 has the fallen "morning star". That word is a word made up by Roman poets, but that does not take away the meaning of "morning star". "Evening star" is satan's downfall. Christians identify Isaiah 14:12 as a prophecy of the downfall of "Satan", identifying the fallen "morning star" with the defeated "Satan". But take a look at Revelations 22:16. There you find the author calls "jc" the "morning star". Ask your pastor to explain that one. By the way, what is this nonsense about Roman poets making up "that word"? I think someone has been either smoking or drinking something strong... Here is the lesson (paraphrased from Rabbi Tovia Singer's writings) to be taken away from the 42-chapter long Book of Job. The Book of Job is proof that Satan is an angel just as all other angels - he obediently carries out the missions assigned to him by The Boss, and never opposes God's will. Acting as 'the adversary', like a prosecutor, Satan suggests that Job's faithfulness will break down when sufficient personal pain is inflicted on him, and he (Satan) requests permission to test Job's virtue. He is granted that permission and proceeds to execute the test, which was carefully outlined by God. In spite of Job's struggle during that period, by the end of this ordeal Job's virtue prevails over Satan's unrelenting torment. Job's personal spiritual triumph, while being a theological impossibility according to Christianity, stands out as the embodiment of God's salvation program for mankind. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
TheXian		#30	[-]
Posts: 24 (10/12/09 16:51:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I was not implying that Samuel was evil or going to hell or anything, I was asking about the practice of mediums. Is that evil? And why would G-d give this burden to people? I understand that your answers may unravel my understandings as is. I am not looking to convert here, i am looking for truth. I actually had theorized the Satan=Prosecutor theory before. The book of Epoch talks about how Satan is the tempter, but does it for G-d. How do people grow in faith if there is never a challenge? Your morning star explanation makes logical sense. I cant think of anything off-hand that contradicts it. Where did J-sus get his power to preform miracles? G-d had to give it to him. Why does he hint so much at the fact that he is the Messiah? Is this all a misprint?
SearchinMyRoots		#31	[-]
Posts: 612 (10/12/09 17:32:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Just as a note: Performing miracles doesn't equate to a messiah.
UriYosef		#32	[-]
Posts: 1997 (10/12/09 18:45:45) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	TheXian wrote: Where did J-sus get his power to preform miracles? G-d had to give it to him. Why does he hint so much at the fact that he is the Messiah? Is this all a misprint? It's not a misprint; it's a series of conjured up stories that never took place. If John, who was thought to be Elijah and which he denied (John 1:21), did not know that jc was the messiah (Matthew 11:2-3, Luke 7:19), who else would be in a position to do so? The promised Jewish Messiah is not expected to perform miracles; he'll be very busy working on a demanding agenda laid out by the prophets in the Hebrew Bible (Messiah Wanted!). UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
Sophiee1		#33	[-]
Posts: 12774 (10/12/09 19:06:40) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	TheXian, you answered your own question. How do people grow in faith if there is never a challenge? G-d tells us as early as Genesis 4:7 that evil crouches at our door, but that we can over come it. We have free will, the ability to choose -- what is there to choose if there isn't a ying to the yang (so to speak)? SMR answered you regarding miracles. Pharoah's magicians were able to duplicate many of Moses' miracles. IF Jsus ever lived it is likely most "miracles" he is said to have performed were added to the mythology later -- after all the Romans were great record keepers, as was Josephus -- and yet none of these crowds of thousands or miracles are recorded outside of the Chrstian stories. Miracles can be a way to test us. Deuteronomy 13 specifically warns us that G-d will grant the power of miracles to people who would lead us astray from Judaism. Read a bit more: Deuteronomy 13:1 The entire word that I command you, that shall you observe to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it. [2] If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, [3] and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying "Let us follow gods of others that you did not know (at Sinai) and we shall worship them! [4] do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for HASHEM, your G-d, is testing you to know whether you love HASHEM, your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. [5] HASHEM, your G-d, shall you follow and Him shall you fear; His commandments shall you observe and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve and to Him shall you cleave. (Artscroll) Rambam, a famous Jewish theologian, wrote in HilkhotYesodei Hatorah, 8,1-2: *Quote:* The Jewish people did not believe in Moses our teacher because of the miracles he performed. If one believes in something because of miracles, he may suspect that they were performed through sleight of hand or sorcery...We believe in Moshe because of what happened at Mount Sinai. Our own eyes saw, not a stranger's, our own ears heard, and not another's...The revelation at Sinai is the only real proof that Moses' prophecy was true and above suspicion. What is our source of belief in Him? The revelation at Mount Sinai. Our own eyes, not some stranger's, saw; our own ears and not another's heard ... the voice spoke to him and we heard, "Moses, Moses, go tell them the following.... How is it known that Mount Sinai alone is proof of the truth of Moses' prophecy that leaves no apprehension? (Exodus 19:9) Behold! I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people will hear Me speaking to you, so that they will believe in you forever. It appears that before this happened, they did not believe in him with a faith that would last forever, but rather with a faith that allowed for suspicions and doubts.... Moses our teacher knew that one who believes in a person because of miracles has apprehensions in his heart, and that he has doubts and suspicions. Therefore he sought to be released from the mission saying, "They will not believe in me" until the Holy One Blessed be He informed him that these wonders were only intended as a temporary measure until they left Egypt. After they left, they would stand on this mountain [Sinai] and all the doubts which they had about him would be removed....This is what is meant by (Exodus 3:12): This will be your sign that I sent you: when you take the people out of Egypt, you will serve God on this mountain. Thus we do not believe in any prophet who arises after Moses because of the miracles that he performs alone, as if to say: If he performs a miracle we will listen to everything he has to say. Rather, [we listen to him] because it is a Mitzvah which we were commanded by Moses who said: if he performs a miracle listen to him. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
TheXian		#34	[-]
Posts: 26 (10/12/09 23:04:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The Ezekiel passage in your Messiah Requirements link doesn't state that they have to be physical children. At least it doesn't in english. The Jews were all brought back into Israel when J-sus was little. There was a census called for by Rome. The 2 Samuel 7:12-16 passage sounds like it is talking about Solomon (in English at least). I maybe can see where you get it from, but its a stretch. Question: Do you believe the Messiah will sin?
Sophiee1		#35	[-]
Posts: 12776 (10/13/09 06:12:33) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	1. Ezekiel 46:16 says the prince will give an inheritance to his sons. How much clearer could it be? Line 17 is even more clear saying that gifts to others revert back to the prince's children upon their deaths. Very clear -- to everyone but an apologist! בָנָ֣יו . 2. Have no clue where you even get the idea that Jews were "all brought back into Israel when Jsus was little." A little history: the northern Kingdom of Israel had been destroyed 700 years prior to Jsus supposed birth. Then we had the Babylonian exile. When Jews were permitted to return to Judah a majority remained in Babylon (Iran) and other countries. At the time of Jsus' supposed life more Jews lived OUTSIDE of Judah than inside it. Jsus supposedly died around 33 of the common era -- and 40 years later the Romans exiled most of the Jews from Judah and destroyed most of Jerusalem. In other words, so far from fulfilling the prophecies that "all Jews will be returned" the timing around his supposed life and death were the exact opposite! One might call Jsus the anti-messiah (if such a concept existed in Judaism, which it does not). You might want to read a little history -- including the fact that the "census" as described in the Greek Text never happened. 3. You say 2 Samuel 7:12-16 "sounds like it is talking about Solomon." Did you miss this sentence: I shall make firm the throne of his kingdom FOREVER. (13). . . your dynasty and your kingdom (Solomon) shall be confirmed before you FOREVER. . . your throne will remain firm FOREVER. (16) In other words, the messiah must be descended from King Solomon. Because the right to the throne remains FOREVER with Solomon's heirs. 4. Of course the messiah will sin. He will be a human being and humans sin -- whether by accident or on purpose. Sin isn't what you think it is. Perhaps you should ask for a definition of sinning. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
ProfBenTziyyon		#36	[-]
Posts: 2477 (10/13/09 06:40:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	TheXian wrote: The Ezekiel passage in your Messiah Requirements link doesn't state that they have to be physical children. At least it doesn't in english. Oh, yes it does; Y'ḥezkél 46:16-17 is all about inheritances, which excludes all "non-physical children". TheXian wrote: The Jews were all brought back into Israel when J-sus was little. There was a census called for by Rome. Ah yes, the one that was held "when Ḥarod was king of Y'hudah" (Lukos 1:5) and while "Quirinius was governor of Syria" (Lukos 2:2). The only problem with those dates is that Ḥarod died in the spring of 4BCE but Quirinius was only appointed governor of Syria ten years later in 6CE. Not to mention that the "census" you mention was ordered (supposedly) before Yoshke was even born, so you can hardly credit him with being the instigator of it! TheXian wrote: The 2 Samuel 7:12-16 passage sounds like it is talking about Solomon (in English at least). Verses 12 and 16 of Sh'muél Beit, ch.7 read as follows: כִּ֣י ׀ יִמְלְא֣וּ יָמֶ֗יךָ וְשָֽׁכַבְתָּ֙ אֶת־אֲבֹתֶ֔יךָ וַֽהֲקִֽימֹתִ֤י אֶֽת־זַרְעֲךָ֙ אַֽחֲרֶ֔יךָ אֲשֶׁ֥ר יֵצֵ֖א מִמֵּעֶ֑יךָ וַהֲכִֽינֹתִ֖י אֶת־מַמְלַכְתּֽוֹ׃ וְנֶאְמַ֨ן בֵּֽיתְךָ֧ וּמַֽמְלַכְתְּךָ֛ עַד־עוֹלָ֖ם לְפָנֶ֑יךָ כִּֽסְאֲךָ֔ יִֽהְיֶ֥ה נָכ֖וֹן עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃ "When your days are ended and you have passed away, I will raise up your own zera that will come out of your genitals and I will make his kingdom secure.... your dynasty and your kingdom are secure for ever; [this is how] your throne is going to be established for all time." TheXian wrote: I maybe can see where you get it from, but its a stretch. Not half as much a "stretch" as claiming a person who never was "anointed" was not just "an anointed one", but even "*the* anointed one" − an expression that is never even used in the Hebrew Scriptures! TheXian wrote: Question: Do you believe the Messiah will sin? Sha'ul ben Kish was a messiah (see Sh'muél Alef 12:3, 12:5; 24:6, 24:10; 26:9, 26:11, 26:16, 26:23; Sh'muél 1:14, 1:16), and he sinned.... David ben Yishai was a messiah (see Sh'muél Beit 19:21; 22:51; 23:1; also T'hillim 18:50), and even he sinned.... And so on. In Kohelet, Sh'lomoh writes כִּ֣י אָדָ֔ם אֵ֥ין צַדִּ֖יק בָּאָ֑רֶץ אֲשֶׁ֥ר יַֽעֲשֶׂה־טּ֖וֹב וְלֹ֥א יֶֽחֱטָֽא׃ "There has never been any man in the world who was so perfect that he did ONLY good and never sinned even once" (Kohelet 7:20) That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
TheXian		#37	[-]
Posts: 27 (10/13/09 09:17:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	What about THE messiah? Will he sin?
ProfBenTziyyon		#38	[-]
Posts: 2480 (10/13/09 10:06:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	TheXian wrote: What about THE messiah.... "THE messiah" is a term than never occurs in the Hebrew Scriptures. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Sophiee1		#39	[-]
Posts: 12778 (10/13/09 10:39:04) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	TheXian, please actually READ the responses to you before asking the same question that has been repeatedly answered. Both the Professor and I told you quite clearly that the messiah will sin -- all humans sin. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
TheXian		#40	[-]
Posts: 28 (10/13/09 21:38:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This is all a new concept to me. Please be patient with my learning. "It's not a misprint; it's a series of conjured up stories that never took place." This would nearly be impossible. All the holy land had heard of him, and of the miracles he preformed. He appeared before crowds, and had debates with the religious leaders in public. There is no doubt that J-sus existed, my quest is to find out if he was God, a prophet, a good man, or evil.

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Deuteronomy 13 specifically warns us that G-d will grant the power of miracles to people who would lead us astray from Judaism.

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