Animal Sacrifice

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JCDefender		#41	[-]
Posts: 2 (05/25/09 20:17:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The original design , as far as our diet is concerned , is vegan . Eating from that which the tree produces . This food is a living food , for nothing was killed , to attain it . Plucking a fruit from a tree , does not kill the tree . Eden was a place of purity and life , not death and destruction . When Hashem lead Israel out of Egypt , he gave them the food of angels , namely manna . I remember , a few years ago when I had a very long debate with all of you , I cited the following passage : Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed G-D in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. On account of the fact that the above implies that sacrifice does atone , for more than unintentional sin ( unless of course they are cursing G-D in their hearts , unintentionally , which seems a bit of a stretch , but anyways ..) , the moderator/s argued that it doesn't matter because the book of Job is classified as " Kethubim " , hence being of that category of scripture , it doesn't have much weight or value , for establishing doctrine . Well , the book of Ezekiel that anti-missionaries love to cite to show how animal sacrifices ( the perpetual slaughter and destructuin of Hashem's creatures ) , will continue forever , likewise falls under "Kethubim" . That begs the obvious question , doesn't it ? What's good for the goose , is good for the gander . I personally don't believe , that individuals were damned , without an animal sacfrifice , as some Christians contend . There are obviously other ways , for an individual to expiate sin , than offering up livestock . However , you have two extremes ..The one held by Dr Michael Brown which assumes that without a blood sacrifice there is absolutely no forgiveness and all people stand condemned and unrighteous before Hashem ..and the anti-missionary position , that ..sacrifices are really just a symbolic token of a person's devotion to G-d . There is no connection between the sacrificial system and the Messiah ..etc [This portion of your long diatribe was deleted for several reasons, not the least of which is that you were preaching your half-baked amalgam of Christian beliefs, and that some of what you said was based on a falsehood you claimed as fact, which I will address in my response. (UY)] "JC"Defender Last Edited By: UriYosef 05/25/09 22:09:41. Edited 1 times.
UriYosef		#42	[-]
Posts: 1826 (05/25/09 22:16:24) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	JCDefender wrote: Well , the book of Ezekiel that anti-missionaries love to cite to show how animal sacrifices ( the perpetual slaughter and destructuin of Hashem's creatures ) , will continue forever , likewise falls under "Kethubim" . Since your Christian bibles do not preserve the divisions of and the order of books in the Hebrew Bible I wonder where you found this nonsensical claim. In the Hebrew Bible and in any Jewish translation thereof, the Book of Ezekiel is in the N'vi'im (Prophets) section. Therefore, the rest of your above post was removed since it depended, in part, on this falsehood that you stated as a fact. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
JCDefender		#43	[-]
Posts: 4 (05/25/09 23:09:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	If you don't agree with my point of view or what I said , that's fine . Delete it ? No . Debunk it ..don't delete 90% of my post , then pretend to respond to it , what a farce . This message-board is nothing more than a place for "JC" hating Jewish people , to come and vent , pat themselves on the back .."those silly Messianics hahaha , we've got it all figured out .. " ....There's no room or tolerance for free and open discourse , in this message-board . So , keep preaching to the quire . I will just continue refuting all of your anti-missionary nonsense , on my website .
JCDefender		#44	[-]
Posts: 5 (05/25/09 23:26:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Also ..How convenient that the 90% of the post you deleted , did not depend on whether Ezekiel is classified as Kethubim by Judaism or not . Those passages that describe the dimensions of the temple , Jerusalem .etc are obviously not to be taken literally ..When my parents ask me why I don't become a devout Jewish person , and join the ranks of the anti-missionaries , I'll just direct them here . Send them a link to this board and show them how you respond to my posts . You have no answers . None .
UriYosef		#45	[-]
Posts: 1827 (05/25/09 23:44:29) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	JCDefender, We don't debate Christians nor do we allow them to preach, especially when they base their material on obviously false statements, such as your claim that the Book of Ezekiel is in the K'tuvim section of the T'nach.. Our discussion boards are here for educational purposes. We help educate Jews & Gentiles about the true teachings of the Hebrew Bible and Judaism. In your 5 posts since you seem to have returned to our boards with this new "handle" you have made claims that anti-missionaries are phonies and obfuscate the truth, yet all you have demonstrated is that you have no Jewish education to speak of (which is probably the reason the missionaries trapped you into becoming a Christian). If you really are a Jew who is a Christian, then test your new faith by reading our Counter-Missionary Page and also visiting ProfBenTziyyon's web-site where you should read his section titled "Other articles and essays". Try to refute all of the material that appears there and, if you are unable to provide intelligent refutations, perhaps you need to reconsider these new beliefs you were trapped into accepting due to your lack of a meaningful Jewish education. UriYosef PS - Please do send your parents to our boards so that they learn what caused their child to swap the G-d of Israel for a dead mangod whose actual existence has never been established. Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!! Last Edited By: UriYosef 05/26/09 12:03:14. Edited 3 times.
ProfBenTziyyon		#46	[-]
Posts: 2074 (05/26/09 04:31:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	UriYosef wrote: ....and also visiting ProfBenTziyyon's web-site where you should read his section titled "Other articles and essays". Many thanks for the endorsement, Uri! http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Sophiee1		#47	[-]
Posts: 12240 (05/26/09 06:23:15) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	JCDefender in the Counter Missionary forum I told you that the majority of problems non-Jews who get in "trouble" here face are based on not obeying the forum rules and a lack of respect. You continue to fall into both categories. Read the rules. This is the "General Judaism" forum which is a place where Jews and non-Jews can ask questions related to Judaism. It is NOT a place for non-Jews to spout out their own theology. It is not a place for debate, but rather for questions and answers. We have many forums at Messiah Truth. The Counter Missionary forum where you first posted is appropriate to discussions of Judaism compared to other religions. Again the point here is "questions" (e.g., "Doesn't Ezekiel state that. . .?" or "Isn't Daniel 9 a prophecy about. . .?"). This is not democracy. It is not a multi-religion or Chrstian forum - it is a Jewish TEACHING place. If indeed you think you can disprove counter missionary arguments by all means have at it -- in the right place, with the right tone (respect) and following the rules of the forum. Thank you. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
Sophiee1		#48	[-]
Posts: 12241 (05/26/09 08:07:25) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	JCDefender wrote: Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed G-D in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. On account of the fact that the above implies that sacrifice does atone , for more than unintentional sin. . . The Book of Job is found in Ketuvi'im (Writings). Ketuvi'im consists of poetry, some history, stories, etc. Job is an ancient story (note the word "story") that was written by Moshe Rabinu (Moses). Bava Bathra tells us that Moshe Rabinu wrote it to console us when we were slave in Egypt. Job (Iyov) may have been based on a real person or not, but it is a story found in Writings. It is not found in Torah. It is not even found in Prophets (Nevi'im). In the story we are told that Job was not a Jew. The first line of the story tells us that Job was from the land of Uz. Uz was settled by Nachor the brother of Abraham (see Genesis 22:21). Job, if he existed, was a descendent then NOT of Abraham but of Nachor since Jews didn't then live in Uz. Ergo you are discussing sacrifices from a non-Jew to justify attacking the mitzvot G-d gave to the JEWS regarding the killing and eating of animals. How illogical is that? The story (if it ever happened and wasn't just a moral tale Moses told the Jews to make them feel better in exile) was prior to the giving of the Torah at Sinai, so it cannot be used to support what G-d gave as mitzvot to the Jews AT Sinai (obviously a later date than the story of Job). Not a very good start, is it? It gets even better! Now, look closely at line 1:5 in the T'nach (Judaica Press translation): Now it would come about when the cycle of the feasting days would be over, that Job would send and summon them, and offer up burnt-offerings early in the morning burnt- offerings according to the number of all of them, for Job said, "Perhaps my sons have sinned and blasphemed G-d in their hearts." So would Job do all the days. Perhaps? Sure sounds like a "maybe" to me! How can you quote that as proof of intentional sin??? Even your translation had "may be" -- again how can one take a "may be" or a "perhaps" and say it is for intentional sins? The word in Job translated as sin is חטאו. Hebrew has many words which are translated into English as "sin." This one refers specifically to UNINTENTIONAL sins. חטא (chatah) means to "miss the mark" as in shooting an arrow at a target and missing the target. One didn't TRY to miss the target, but one did. This is the very definition of unintentional! Ergo based on Hebrew alone your argument is wrong -- let alone the perhaps and the maybe also in the English translations. JCDefender, if this is how you come here to disprove counter missionaries you are going to have a very hard time doing it! How can a sacrifice of a non-Jew for unintentional sins prove that animal sacrifices atone for MORE than unintentional sins? Perhaps your parents are smarter than you think! סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12 Last Edited By: Sophiee1 05/26/09 08:17:59. Edited 1 times.
Netanel		#49	[-]
Posts: 1710 (05/26/09 08:45:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The original design , as far as our diet is concerned , is vegan . Eating from that which the tree produces . This food is a living food , for nothing was killed , to attain it . Plucking a fruit from a tree , does not kill the tree . Eden was a place of purity and life , not death and destruction . When Hashem lead Israel out of Egypt , he gave them the food of angels , namely manna . Ah, if only it were so simplistic. You see, in B'reishit 4:4 Hevel brings an offering to Hashem. Not just any offering does Hevel bring to Hashem, but an offering from the firstborn of his flocks, as opposed to Qayin's strictly "vegan" offering. But here is a problem. Mankind was not given the allowance to eat meat until No'ah, as recorded in B'reshit 9:3. What purpose could one have to slaughter an animal if not to eat it? What the heck is Hevel doing bringing an offering of innocent wittle animals to Hashem hundreds of years before then? The written Torah does not record that Hevel was told he could slaughter and offer up from his flock of animals, does it? Yet this is the offering which Hashem "turned to." Shocking, I know. This shows us that even when man wasn't allowed to eat animals God accepted them as an offering, in this case even to the exclusion of the much-more-PC "fruits of the ground." Even when we were not allowed to slaughter an animal for food here we see that Hevel was allowed to slaughter an animal for no other purpose than for an offering to Hashem. While the Israelite offerings that Christians and PETA nuts love to rail on went to feed tens of thousands of people who otherwise might (more like would) go hungry, this offering on the part of Hevel would go to feed nobody, and yet this was the offering that Hashem "turned to." How could Hashem condone such a waste? So much for the vegan bent some unlearned people unsuccesfully try to superimpose onto the Torah. Now, you may say that all this happened outside of Éden, but recall that God did not plant a garden called Éden, rather he planted a garden IN Éden. When Qayin murdered his brother he went and dwelled in the land east of Éden, but from whence did he come? What is the purpose of saying that Qayin now lived east of Éden? Why is Éden the reference point, as if that is where Qayin went out from? FYI, when you pluck a fruit from its source it is no longer living. You can choose to believe when you eat an apple it is "living" because nothing was killed to attain it, but believeing something and that belief being correct are two different things. I remember , a few years ago when I had a very long debate with all of you , I cited the following passage : Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed G-D in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. On account of the fact that the above implies that sacrifice does atone , for more than unintentional sin ( unless of course they are cursing G-D in their hearts , unintentionally , which seems a bit of a stretch , but anyways ..) , the moderator/s argued that it doesn't matter because the book of Job is classified as " Kethubim " , hence being of that category of scripture , it doesn't have much weight or value , for establishing doctrine . Well , the book of Ezekiel that anti-missionaries love to cite to show how animal sacrifices ( the perpetual slaughter and destructuin of Hashem's creatures ) , will continue forever , likewise falls under "Kethubim" . That begs the obvious question , doesn't it ? What's good for the goose , is good for the gander . The only question this begs is what poor sources have you been relying on. For one, it is K'tuvim, not Kethubim (I will never for the life of me understand how so many misguided people can look to the Europeans as their source for Hebrew). Second, Y'hezqél is in the N'viyim (Prophets), not K'tuvim (Writings). Regarding the passage you cited, I don't know what mod you discussed this with or what that mod said to you. Authorship of Séfer Iyyov is traditionally credited to Moshe. It may or may not refer to a historical person. Even if this person is historical they may or may not have been Jewish. They may have lived hundreds of years before or after the giving of the Torah. They may have lived hundreds of years before or after the building of the Tabernacle, or hundreds of years before the Temple. They may or may not have lived in Eretz Yisraél. There are many variables. To put it simply, why would we look to Iyyov for instructions on how to brings offerings when we have already been instructed how and when in the Torah? Why would we look to him for instructions on how to bring offerings when Iyyov may have been a gentile, or may have lived hundreds of years before B'nei Yisraél, or hundreds of years before the Tabernacle or Temple existed, or any number of things which would make his manner of offering irrelevent to how a Jew observes these mitzvot. There are opinions which ascribe any combination of these variables to him. But, we know what offerings we are to be make, how they are to be made, where they are to be made, when they are to be made, etc. from the Torah. Whatever the purpose of Séfer Iyyov, it is not to replace the mitzvot of the Torah. Even all that aside, it is ironic that you cite Iyyov 1:5 as speaking of intentional sins when in fact it says just the opposite. The verse clearly establishes that Iyyov has no clue one way or another whether his sons have sinned or not, which is precisely why he is doing it. To take this to mean that he is making offerings for their intentional sins is completely baseless, and is contradicted by the plain text itself. When the Temple, described in Y'hezqél, is built, we will continue to bring offerings in it. This Temple is not allegorical and you have no basis for claiming it is. I personally don't believe , that individuals were damned , without an animal sacfrifice , as some Christians contend . There are obviously other ways , for an individual to expiate sin , than offering up livestock . However , you have two extremes ..The one held by Dr Michael Brown which assumes that without a blood sacrifice there is absolutely no forgiveness and all people stand condemned and unrighteous before Hashem ..and the anti-missionary position , that ..sacrifices are really just a symbolic token of a person's devotion to G-d . There is no connection between the sacrificial system and the Messiah ..etc What does that matter? All you are illustrating is that Christianity is all about picking and choosing. It's nice that your brand of Christianity doesn't damn a person without animal sacrifice (although surely said people are damned somewhere or another in your equation), but that doesn't make your brand of Christianity any more compatible with the Torah. Congrats, you are a different brand of mislead. Last Edited By: Netanel 05/26/09 12:36:00. Edited 4 times.
brgordon		#50	[-]
Posts: 24 (05/26/09 19:22:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Darn do we have some Evangelical Christian taking over the thread turning it into a debate instead of a meeting of minds? Sigh Just when we were getting some where. I have learned a lot here and my opinion was even influencing other peoples thoughts. I was getting email that from other Jews that agreed with some of what I said and were teaching me about the Torah. I still have the email but if a thread is taken over by some Evangelical then any topic suddenly becomes about Jesus. Boring. Jesus was a great teacher but he wasn't God. Of course I'm a pantheist but that is a whole nother discussion. I do find it ironic that Christians like my mom claim that Jewish writings are based on the Old Testament of a vengeful angry God saying Jesus was so much more peaceful.For one thing the Only Jesus we have is hearsay like Plato telling us what Socrates said. The other irony is Christians like that ignore the fact that Christians KEPT the old testament. So like the Jew they are claiming the same characteristics as the Tribal Deities for God. I really think this post should go through. Jewish people may be offended if they think I am implying that the Torah describes a mythological God butI am not saying that. In Buddhism there is a story of a monk pointing at the moon and saying "moon". The other monk looks at his finger and says "moon". What I have been trying to say is no holy book is devoid of any mythological concepts. Whether they be virgin birth or demigods that are half man half god or projecting our worse characteristics such as anger or jealousy onto a perfect God of (Unconditional) Love. Blood Sacrifice of any kind is a primitive way of getting Gods attention. Primitive meaning the oldest most primitive religions had blood sacrifice to appease their Gods. Also primitive meaning if we ever expect to understand God we shouldn't just choose a religion and put blinders on to history. Again the Jews here have a whole website showing that with a little research you can find evidence that the Jesus myth was based on other "Savior" mythology. So people should know that examining other Holy books like The Torah The Bhavagita The Koran etc all have a source in Mythology. I have asked Christians the same question on why they will not look at the historical evidence on mythology. Their answer was the same as any other religion I asked the same question of. Their answer was that would lead to atheism. Perhaps this is why Buddhist like myself are accused of atheism because I accept that there is mythology in Buddhism. Jesus was accused of atheism so was Socrates and the famous Jew Spinoza was accused of atheism. But not Einstein because being insecure and selfish most religions want to claim Einstein as their own. The Christians claim him even though he was a Jew because they thought he believed in a personal God so atheist cant have him. The Jews claimed him because he was a Jew. And the atheist claimed him because he was neither. The point is the geniuses and wise men of history were always accused of atheism because they knew better than to take mythological representations of God as the real God.Let alone take a holy book as historical and literal fact. To me taking holy books as literal facts and ignoring the history of mythology influence on these books "concepts of God" being passed off as God himself is atheism. Hmm sounds like a good subject for a book. I am going to go start one on this right now.
UriYosef		#51	[-]
Posts: 1831 (05/27/09 14:57:59) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	JCDefender - From now on, until you answer ProfBenTziyyon's 2 questions, i.e., what is your definition of a "messiah", and provide a single verse from the Hebrew Bible (not the Christian "Old Testament") to validate that definition, none of your posts will be released by any of our moderators. You've been asked 2 simple questions about a term you have used, and we will not allow you to dodge them and let you use our discussion boards as your "soap box" for preaching nonsense and falsehoods, and for denigrating our effective counter-missionary work. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
Sophiee1		#52	[-]
Posts: 12248 (05/27/09 15:04:06) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	brgordon while we appreciate your defense of Judaism, the General Judaism forum is for the discussion of Judaism, not discussing other religions. If you want to discuss Chrstianity, or even Bddhism for that matter, please start a new thread in the Counter Missionary forum. Thanks. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
ProfBenTziyyon		#53	[-]
Posts: 2083 (05/27/09 16:13:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	UriYosef wrote: until you answer ProfBenTziyyon's 2 questions, i.e., what is your definition of a "messiah", and provide a single verse from the Hebrew Bible (not the Christian "Old Testament") to validate that definition, none of your posts will be released by any of our moderators. Uri − You surely don't expect him to actually answer a question, do you? He's a christian and vermin like him are too *arrogant* to ever answer questions: they consider doing that beneath them and all they ever want to do is spout lies and nonsense, and *ask* questions they are not even interested in the answers to! http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
brgordon		#54	[-]
Posts: 25 (05/27/09 18:15:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I wasn't trying to discuss Buddhism. I was just pointing out that most religions teach about concepts of God and that some of these concepts are mythological in origin. Also I pointed out that if a person points to the moon and says moon yous shouldn't mistake the finger for the moon. Religious concepts of God are like the finger pointing to the moon. Where God is the moon. Concepts about God are not actually God. That was my only point. At least I was making a point about blood sacrifice in relation to mythology. That is my point was on topic. Again READ my post. Although I do mention tiny thoughts about Buddhism in comparison to Judaism because I think the two have more in common then most religions put side by side... I teach nothing about Buddhism. Nothing. I try to clear up misconceptions about us just as you try to make clear any misconceptions about Jews. I was just suggesting that unlike the Christians who will admit nothing about mythology influencing their religion the Jews could take the higher ground. What attracted me most to Judaism and maybe even studying to be a Rabbi was that Jewish religion doesn't hide its roots The Jews actually accept the Mystic teachings of the Kabbalah. I have also talked to many a Rabbi that will admit to me just how much the Torah is influenced by mythology. Most learned Jews especially the Rabbi are actually secure in their religion. Bringing up mythology to a Jew doesn't automatically have a dedicated Jew or serious Rabbi Scholar running in fear or foaming at the mouth in rage. The Jewish people know what persecution is and why truth must be studied and questioned. There never was a Jewish Crusade or Inquisition. Jews have tolerance that few others know. This is an inner peace that only God can give. Though some of the people on here may challenge me and politely remind me where I am it is not like posting on a Christian board.There I would get zero respect. No attempt would be made to understand me. I would be threatened with hell fire. Maybe even have my life threatened. And I guarantee almost none of my post would go through. Unless it were just to be torn apart with hell fire talk. Here I feel I am being given a fair chance. Sometimes I feel like no one actually read my post but the fact that they are going through shows me that at least the person that put them through read them. I know the person that put them through KNOWS that I am NOT preaching Buddhism. The irony is Buddhism couldn't even be preached if I wanted to. Honestly we are like you in that we have no doctrines that try to "save" people. I think that was the key of my last post. HONESTY. I am just pointing out that unlike other religions Judaism can actually be honest without losing anything. Let me make it clear. If I was raised a Jew and found out that God was not a Jealous Angry God that floods the Earth etc. That these concepts of God are mythologically based on past tribal deities I would still remain a Jew. If on the other hand I was raised Christian and found out that concepts of trinity and savior were in other mythologies that Christians "borrowed" from I would give up on Christianity instantly. Why? Because Christianity is NOTHING without a God man born of a virgin and made into a blood sacrifice. Without those pagan concepts being passed off as Gods' plan Christianity is nonsense. Without the treat of Hell Christianity would die. Judaism isn't like this. Even seeing all the mythology of the Torah I still want to learn the Torah. I have studied the Kabbalah a little and it has opened my eyes a little more. There are issues I have with it just as I have issues with Buddhisms higher teachings. But I find there is a lot more that I want to learn. If the Christian religion died out tomorrow I would lose no sleep over it. I would feel like the world has really lost nothing of importance. I think the world would become a happier and more peaceful place. If Judaism died out I would feel a loss. I feel that unlike most religions you are actually working on your spirituality and you encourage people to study your religion even at the risk of your own Rabbi learning some of the mythological origins of parts of your Torah. There is both closed mindedness and open mindedness in your religion. But at least you no longer persecute your mystics. And you never persecuted freethinkers the way Christians did and still do. You are no power hungry. I do not have to worry about a Jewish Theocracy. Wish I could say the same for the Christians. But I am on watch for them. And they have already crossed way too many lines already. That all being said. I will argue to my death against a Jealous Angry God that needs blood sacrifice. This is a PAGAN concept of God(s). I will argue against any religion that claims the Tribal Deities of the past actually represent a genuine vision of God. To be told that God not being Evil is just my opinion is too much for me to take. This is s theological question. It has not been settled by the Jews or the Christians. Until it IS settled I will defend God against false mythological concepts . Many need their God to be a personal one. Does personal mean something we can understand in human terms? When theologians are confronted with the problem of Evil they are quick to point out that God works in mysterious ways. So God is this powerful force of love. Love is not like gravity which as far as we know is impersonal. Love is very personal. Love in its purest form will convince any one that they have a soul. The closer you become to your soul the more your awareness will expand. If your awareness expands wide enough you will experience God very personally. You will feel the God spark in you and you will connect to God like we connect here on the internet. But with no boundaries the will be no room for misunderstanding. This is not Buddhism. This IS Mysticism. Mysticism belongs to no religion. There are Jewish mystics as well as other kinds.Mystics do not give up their religion. In fact mystics typically have an even deeper faith in their religion. But once you see God as God is you will no longer need concepts... ... let alone projections of some stern father figure that practices tough love by flooded the entire Earth or dashing babies heads against the stones. If we are Gods children this would be child abuse. Until we challenge ourselves to see God as God IS rather than how we are told based on ancient writings of the most violent cultures of man ....how do we expect to ever spiritually evolve..let alone achieve the peace and love utopia God promises in every holy book? If you worship God as an angry jealous deity that demands blood sacrifice then you choose to live in a world of conflicts poverty and war. Even if you claim your religion teaches love and compassion. It is only by seeing God how God truly is all loving with no hate desire or anger or jealousy can you ever hope to enter the world he prepared for you as described in YOUR holy books. Maybe we have a LOT of work to do before we can reach that level but living in the past and worshiping mythological tribal deities traits from pagan gods as what God truly is will never get us there.
Sophiee1		#55	[-]
Posts: 12257 (05/27/09 18:32:18) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I wasn't trying to infer that your previous point was a discussion of Bddhism -- it was more a discussion of Chrstianity. My point simply is that the General Judaism forum is not a place for discussing any religion other than Judaism. Discussions about other religions belong in the Counter Missionary forum. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
Netanel		#56	[-]
Posts: 1717 (05/27/09 19:05:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	brgordon, You are free to feel what you'd like. We don't consider our Torah to be based on pagan myth. I've examined these supposed correlations myself and found them to be lacking. Only with a superficial reading of both No'ah and the Epic of Gilgamesh could someone consider No'ah to be based on E.G. The works you reference contain numerous gods doing battle. This non-starter, among other things, is nothing like the Torah. And yes, you were trying to discuss Buddhism. As you were in most previous posts you have made. Like I said before, we understand you are Buddhist and we are not preoccupied with it to the extent you are. No, not even the perceived similarities. We acknowledge that there are many paths a non-Jew can take to God. Seeing how this board is devoted to keeping and bringing Jews to Torah and topics along those lines, it should be apparent we really aren't interested in discussing Buddhism. We established that already, but apparently not well enough. If you have questions about Judaism or Counter-Missionary then feel free to ask and participate. Buddhism is not the topic either directly or indirectly. Based on your comments I doubt you have had such a conversation with a kosher Rabbi. There are "rabbis" all over the US who don't believe in God, or don't believe in Torah, or this, or that. The type of "rabbis" who would mislead themselves and their students into believing they could teach them Qabbalah. In short, not Rabbis at all. No, we aren't going to burn you at the stake for suggesting it, but needless to say we reject the notion. Being that it was given to us, and we have preserved it meticulously for 3,500 years, that is our right. You are correct about Judaism on one point. We are not the unemployed person that sits on the couch doing nothing, waiting for God to send a job to our door. We are actively working to improve ourselves as individuals and from there outward. That all being said. I will argue to my death against a Jealous Angry God that needs blood sacrifice. This is a PAGAN concept of God(s). I will argue against any religion that claims the Tribal Deities of the past actually represent a genuine vision of God. To be told that God not being Evil is just my opinion is too much for me to take. This is s theological question. It has not been settled by the Jews or the Christians. Until it IS settled I will defend God against false mythological concepts . We're not interested here. There are plenty of other places on the internet you can argue until that day. The fact is that we accept the Torah as written by God, you don't, and thus we are not going to agree, and we certainly aren't interested in arguing with you about it. Rest assured that offerings were a part of Torah observance, and when the proper conditions are restored they will be again. And like they did then, they will once again go toward providing for the needy among us. As far as good and evil go: *Y'shayahu 45:7* 7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these. *Eichah 3:38* 38. [And] by the command of the Most High, neither good nor evil come. If you worship God as an angry jealous deity that demands blood sacrifice then you choose to live in a world of conflicts poverty and war. Even if you claim your religion teaches love and compassion. It is only by seeing God how God truly is all loving with no hate desire or anger or jealousy can you ever hope to enter the world he prepared for you as described in YOUR holy books. Despite your very-Christian-like characterization of our God, we have one of the best records of any people when it comes to taking care of our impoverished, when it comes to caring about people, and making the world around us better. In fact, those offerings you denigrate fed and provided for more impoverished people than any of these empty catch phrases about love ever have. You can't expect us to allow to continue to denigrate us and our God. We've welcomed you as a guest, but that is conditional on you following the guidelines of this forum. Maybe we have a LOT of work to do before we can reach that level but living in the past and worshiping mythological tribal deities traits from pagan gods as what God truly is will never get us there. The values we have brought to the world are unparalleled anywhere else. All but perhaps the far East has been impacted by them. Not through forced conversion, or even conversion at all, but through the way we conduct ourselves in the midst of the many nations of the world. The Torah was given to every Jew regardless of status, age, gender, etc. and through our faithfulness to the Torah and its mitzvot we have been an example to the nations we've been dispersed in. We are not interested in getting anywhere that takes us away from Torah. If you don't understand this yet you will learn as Luthor eventually did. And while I don't know I would use the word Theocracy (as there are different branches in the legitimate Jewish system), you have much more to learn about Judaism if you are not aware that we fully intend to re-establish Torah-observance in all its facets (including a King, High Priest, Kohanim, Levites, Beit Din, etc) in Eretz Yisraél. Last Edited By: Netanel 05/27/09 19:14:42. Edited 2 times.
drashi		#57	[-]
Posts: 623 (06/03/09 11:57:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The English word "Sacrifice" is often misused, and it comes from the Latin "sacre ficare" or "to make sacred/holy", which is what an offering really is, a sanctification, transforming something that would be simply a yummy meal into something that provides a joining between man and the Creator.
Zvi		#58	[-]
Posts: 76 (06/05/09 01:48:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	What is so great about the scientists that eat meat? They have mocked a transformative experience that honored and elevated animals to the level of holiness and while they have descended to the level of animals to eat solely for the sake of eating. Which is better, to treat the animal with due respect and honor or to treat it as a mere piece of meat?
ProfBenTziyyon		#59	[-]
Posts: 2115 (06/06/09 18:25:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	How comes it that the index is showing 62 replies in this thread (the most recent being time-stamped 02:48:03 on 06/05/09), and yet there are actually only 58 replies in the text? http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
UriYosef		#60	[-]
Posts: 1836 (06/06/09 20:36:14) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	ProfBenTziyyon wrote: How comes it that the index is showing 62 replies in this thread (the most recent being time-stamped 02:48:03 on 06/05/09), and yet there are actually only 58 replies in the text? There were several posts left over from "JCDefender" that were not released since he never answered the questions posed to him. In fact, he got quite nasty in a couple of them (his "Christian love" is not more than skin deep!). Now that almost two weeks have passed since the last one, I deleted them. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!

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