LAST GENERATION......?

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Sophiee1		#21	[-]
Posts: 12314 (06/14/09 12:50:57) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Weboh, as we've told you before: anything good in the GT isn't new (e.g., honor your parents) and anything that is new isn't good (don't bury your dead). You did not phrase your use of Shemot (Exodus) 21:17 in the form of a question, and thus your use of it to make a point is mistaken. What does it mean to "curse" one's parents? Do you know? סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12 Last Edited By: UriYosef 06/14/09 13:48:01. Edited 1 times.
weboh		#22	[-]
Posts: 12 (06/14/09 13:01:12) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	[(2) to treat with contempt, bring contempt or dishonour] It hebrew qalal probably means badmouth; just like the greek which is probably cognate in this part. Feel free to say the Torah is not that strict, and does forgive children; but it doesn't. I admit any child who cripples their parents should die, but the law where you take a child to their death for being lazy or mouthy is very suspicious to me. I should end this conversation here.
Sophiee1		#23	[-]
Posts: 12315 (06/14/09 13:32:05) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Weboh, you are using the last desperate missionary tool of trying to change the subject when it is proven that your contention that Jsus was a good and holy man was shown to be false. So your post tries to change the subject so that readers will ignore the magician's trick and still take it for an amazing miracle. "Look over there, not over here!" Sad. Truly sad. Can't you do better in defending Jsus as a decent human being, let alone a god than to turn and change the subject? The Torah tells us to honor our parents. It tells us this more than once -- and when the Torah repeats something it does so to emphasize just how important this is to do. This admonition is repeated in Shemot (Exodus) 20:12, Vayikra (Leviticus) 20:9 among others (Devarim / Deuteronomy 27:16). There is QUITE an emphasis on showing honor to our parents. The death sentence was extremely rare in ancient Israel. The halacha (law) is very strict that there must be two eye witnesses to the crime and the court must convict the person. If the court is unanimous in the conviction the person is NOT killed. Jewish law is heavily tempered with mercy. What does it mean to "curse" one's parents? It means to curse them with intent to do damage, because the curse is done using G-d's holiest name. Why is it so important to honor our parents? Well, obviously because the Torah tells us to do so! But why does the Torah place such an enormous emphasis on it? Parents give us life. They stand as authority figures in this realm -- and to dishonor this authority is by extension a dishonoring of the parent of us all. Again, your comment was nothing by a rabbit trail, a way to deflect the debate from Jsus' obvious ignoring of Torah mitzvot and sinning. You should indeed end the conversation -- you should have ended it before you began it by ASKING a question in a new thread. Does the Torah emphatically tell us to honor our parents? Answer "yes." Did Jsus honor parents? Answer "no" -- not his, nor anyone elses. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
UriYosef		#24	[-]
Posts: 1837 (06/14/09 14:25:23) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	weboh wrote: It hebrew qalal probably means badmouth; just like the greek which is probably cognate in this part. You don't sound very sure of yourself, which is, of course, the result of not knowing either language well enough to make a definitive statement. weboh wrote: Feel free to say the Torah is not that strict, and does forgive children; but it doesn't. I admit any child who cripples their parents should die, but the law where you take a child to their death for being lazy or mouthy is very suspicious to me. Sophie already addressed this common missionary tactic: when you paint yourself into a corner, change the subject. Nevertheless, since you brought up this subject and have further demonstrated your ignorance of the Torah, I will provide comments on this matter, which is discussed in Deuteronomy 21:18-21. Our Sages OBM taught that this law was never carried out; and, by the regulation with which the infliction of the death-penalty was in this case surrounded [i.e., the requirement of a warning of the seriousness of the offense as well as the fact that the law of evidence in capital offenses and the proof of premeditation were so sever that a death verdict was almost impossible to obtain], it could not be carried out. [In Israel, even when the behavior of an adolescent son had become intolerable, the parent had to appeal to the decision of an impartial tribunal. The death penalty could only be inflicted by the community, with the sanction of the elders of the city.] One lesson of the presence in the Torah of this precept was merely to serve as a warning, and bring out with the stringest possible emphasis the seriousness of the act of disobedience to parents. Another very important lesson here is that the Jewish parents did not possess the power of life and death over their children. Contrast this with the Greek and Roman civilizations, where (in Greece) weak children were exposed to perish (e.g., on a deserted mountain); and in Rome, the father could at will put even an adult son to death. weboh wrote: I should end this conversation here. Yes, that is a good call on your part since you have no answer. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
weboh		#25	[-]
Posts: 13 (06/14/09 14:26:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It is not just me who has taken a different topic on this thread; you're guilty to. The disciples relatives were unrighteous and were going to die in war with Rome. "Forgive(strongs greek #863) the dead to bury those of themselves dead ones, then be going and preach the kingdom of G-d." (Luke 9:60). Was this disciple on a mission of forgiveness before that? God granted him a favor. End of story.
weboh		#26	[-]
Posts: 14 (06/14/09 14:41:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	You don't sound very sure of yourself, which is, of course, the result of not knowing either language well enough to make a definitive statement. That's because I am putting it mildly and understating the case. The Hebrew Qalal means the same as the greek Kokolegomai. It is a more serious offense than calling someone name. It means to word them wrong by mistake or intention. Nevertheless, since you brought up this subject and have further demonstrated your ignorance of the Torah, I will provide comments on this matter, which is discussed in Deuteronomy 21:18-21. Since I don't know "Oral Torah", I am allowing you to say this. But since I don't believe in "Oral Torah", I can't ignore this or your reasons for believing that it wasn't ever enforced.
Sophiee1		#27	[-]
Posts: 12316 (06/14/09 15:18:42) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	weboh wrote: It is not just me who has taken a different topic on this thread; you're guilty to. The disciples relatives were unrighteous and were going to die in war with Rome. "Forgive(strongs greek #863) the dead to bury those of themselves dead ones, then be going and preach the kingdom of G-d." (Luke 9:60). Was this disciple on a mission of forgiveness before that? God granted him a favor. End of story. The topic was Jsus not honoring parents. You keep going back to it being somehow different for his disciples. This is nonsense. A mitzvah is a mitzvah is a mitzvah. His followers should have been taught to be HOLIER than others if Jsus was such a "good Jew" let alone a god. Jsus in these examples in the GT dishonored his own parents and encouraged others to dishonor them as well. Far from their being disciples excusing such behavior it makes it all that much WORSE! To not bury one's parent is dishonoring them. It is EXACTLY an example of the topic at hand and not changing the topic one bit. Your second paragraph is just more excuse without basis in fact. The man in the GT was going to bury his father. Jsus told him to NOT bury his father (breaking mitzvot) and follow him instead. What mitzvot did Jsus break and encourage others to break? Negative Mitzvah #299 - Giving Misleading Advice Negative Mitzvah #312 - Teaching that differs from Traditional Authorities Negative Mitzvah #314 - Detracting from the Written or Oral Law. Positive Commandment #8 - Walking in G-d's ways (taking care of others) Positive Commandment #94 - All oral obligations (promises) are to be fulfilled Positive Commandment #210 - Honoring Parents Positive Commandment #211 - Respecting parents Positive Commandment #231 - The law of burial End of story. Jsus sinned. Jsus encouraged others to sin. A perfect example of dishonoring one's parents. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12 Last Edited By: Sophiee1 06/14/09 15:31:20. Edited 1 times.
UriYosef		#28	[-]
Posts: 1838 (06/14/09 16:50:47) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	weboh wrote: The Hebrew Qalal means the same as the greek Kokolegomai. It is a more serious offense than calling someone name. It means to word them wrong by mistake or intention. Since I am not an expert on the Greek language and wasn't able to find such a word in the resources I searched, I shall leave the response to others who know Greek well. As to the Hebrew, first of all, there is no upper-case/lower-case distinction in the Hebrew language, hence your transliteration "Qalal" is ludicrous. Secondly, since I am a native Hebrew speaker, I am in a position to comment on the verb, the root of which is קלל, and which can mean any of the following: "to curse", "to revile", "to execrate", and even "to abuse" - it is a severe, offensive, and intentional act. This verb is used in the Hebrew Bible 43 times, and the derived noun, קְלָלָה (qlalah), "a curse", appears in the Hebrew Bible 33 times. These are rather modest frequencies for Hebrew vocabulary in the Hebrew Bible, which may also point to their severity. weboh wrote: Since I don't know "Oral Torah", I am allowing you to say this. But since I don't believe in "Oral Torah", I can't ignore this or your reasons for believing that it wasn't ever enforced. Since you "don't believe in "Oral Torah"", rest assured that you don't know Torah. Without the Oral Torah, the Written Torah is incomplete and, in many instances, incomprehensible. It is like saying, "I read the headlines in the newspaper and know what is going on. I skip the detailed accounts under these headlines because someone made them up and I don't believe them.". I will, of course, not deny your right to have your opinions, even if they are misguided. The consequences are, of course, entirely yours. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
Sophiee1		#29	[-]
Posts: 12317 (06/14/09 17:34:22) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The laws regarding the death penalty are all described in the WRITTEN Torah. Numbers 35:30. . .A single witness may not testify against a person so that he should die. Deuteronomy 17:6 By the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall the one liable to death be put to death; he shall not be put to death by the mouth of one witness. Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against any person for any iniquity or for any sin, regarding any sin that he will sin. By the mouth of two witnesses, or by the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be confirmed. The written Torah clearly says there must be at least TWO witnesses. Furthermore there must be judges well versed in halacha (from the Torah): Deuteronomy 1:16 I commanded your judges at that time, saying, "Hear [disputes] between your brothers and judge justly between a man and his brother, and between his litigant Deuteronomy 19:18 And the judges shall inquire thoroughly, and behold, the witness is a false witness; he has testified falsely against his brother; Tried in front of impartial judges. This is from the WRITTEN Torah, Weboh. Again, you are trying neatly to change the subject. What does what the Torah has to say about honoring parents and how courts work including the death penalty have to do with the fact that Jsus did NOT honor any parents -- his or anyone else's? סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
weboh		#30	[-]
Posts: 15 (06/14/09 17:45:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	My spelling mistake. κακολογέω was the greek verb in first person.
ProfBenTziyyon		#31	[-]
Posts: 2146 (06/16/09 09:45:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	weboh wrote: I[n] hebrew qalal probably means badmouth.... No, it doesn't. It's much, MUCH stronger than that. Consider this incident involving the prophet Elisha.... וַיַּ֥עַל מִשָּׁ֖ם בֵּֽית־אֵ֑ל וְה֣וּא ׀ עֹלֶ֣ה בַדֶּ֗רֶךְ וּנְעָרִ֤ים קְטַנִּים֙ יָֽצְא֣וּ מִן־הָעִ֔יר וַיִּתְקַלְּסוּ־בוֹ֙ וַיֹּ֣אמְרוּ ל֔וֹ עֲלֵ֥ה קֵרֵ֖חַ עֲלֵ֥ה קֵרֵֽחַ׃ וַיִּ֤פֶן אַֽחֲרָיו֙ וַיִּרְאֵ֔ם וַֽיְקַלְלֵ֖ם בְּשֵׁ֣ם יְיָ֑ וַתֵּצֶ֜אנָה שְׁתַּ֤יִם דֻּבִּים֙ מִן־הַיַּ֔עַר וַתְּבַקַּ֣עְנָה מֵהֶ֔ם אַרְבָּעִ֥ים וּשְׁנֵ֖י יְלָדִֽים׃ ....then he went up from there towards Beit Él and, as he was walking up the road, some young people came out of the city and jeered at him, saying to him, "Let's see you go up [to heaven], baldy! Let's see you go up [to heaven], baldy!" [they were comparing him with his predecessor Éliyyahu, who had been very hirsute (see M'lachim Beit 1:8), whereas Elisha was hairless; and they were taunting him to emulate his predecessor who had just "gone up to heaven in a whirlwind" (see M'lachim Beit 2:11). Furthermore Beit Él was the site of one of the two calf-idols erected by Yarov'am I (see M'lachim Alef 12:28-32) and the people who lived there had little respect for Prophets.] So he looked behind him and cursed them [va-y'kal'lém)] using Adonai's Name; and immediately two female bears emerged from the forest [which was a miracle in itself because bears were not indigenous to that region] and mauled forty-two of those young people [the text does not say that the 42 "young people" were killed, merely that they were injured]. (M'lachim Beit 2:23-24) This incident demonstrates that the verb קלל kalal, which is the opposite of to "bless", means to invoke God's Name with the intention of causing harm to another person. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל Last Edited By: ProfBenTziyyon 06/16/09 15:01:04. Edited 1 times.
weboh		#32	[-]
Posts: 16 (06/16/09 11:27:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Okay, I was fascinated by how I was wrong, but I don't believe you don't need to use G-d's to "curse". The intent to harm is enough. Since the greek word is cognate, it follows I am wrong about its definition too.
Alesiah	THE LAST GENERATION	#33	[-]
Posts: 722 (06/16/09 22:04:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Take a look at Revelation.......What do the red letter verses express in the red letter editions??? For those who don't know...Red letter basically represents words spoken by JC!! So, what is the red letter god claiming????? Here's an example of what I mean: (NKJV) Revelation 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. What about these verses?? Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:11 saying, "I am the Alphaand the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea." Revelation 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." Is JC claiming to be the First and the Last? Is he claiming to be G-d in those verses?? But what does the Tanach express? (JPC) Isaiah 44:6. So said the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts, "I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no God.
weboh		#34	[-]
Posts: 17 (06/17/09 08:10:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This is quoted as if from J-sus, but it is from G-d "6 And He said to me, 'It is done![c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[e] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (The first being loss of life at the hand of the Romans.) Notice, how only in your bible-- and your quote is from Isaiah-- does G-d claim to be the be the first and the last; which sounds to me that G-d puts himself last to be first. It makes him sound human, but G-d is never last, nor human. And the alpha and omega; and beginning and end have nothing to do with special G-d status for the J-man. The J-man has only angelic-quasi-god status at that point, and it will continue that way. And the greek is more like this in Revelation 22:13: "I am the Alpha and Omega being a beginning and end being the first and last." 13εγω ειμι το α και το ω αρχη και τελος ο πρωτος και ο εσχατος. You can see that I am not impressed, certainly you find better "proofs" which are english forgeries if you needed to do so.
Proteus	AS TO "ALPHA AND OMEGA" ...	#35	[-]
Posts: 1866 (06/17/09 15:18:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	... from my reading of the Greek quoted, I am compelled to agree with the Noahide and the Jews who have posted here, and to disagree with the other person. In short, in this passage, Jsus identifies himself with *ein sof*. P. The most persuasive case anyone can make for one's religion is the way one lives one's life.
weboh		#36	[-]
Posts: 18 (06/18/09 08:36:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	But you don't even know what "I am the alpha and the omega" means-- and it related to learning an alphabet only. Thus you can't prove anything that basis. It is related to the greek alphabet, and what start αρχη and completion τελος are they talking about? It could be anything and doesn't prove squat, if the context is unknown. Notice how ein sof doesn't calls himself-- in the GT, "the first and the last"; and this is because he is not human and would never need to put himself last in a need to come first. In short "Proteus", I know you are imagining what is not there.
Sophiee1		#37	[-]
Posts: 12332 (06/18/09 08:55:07) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Weboh, alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet. Omega is the last letter of the Greek alphabet. Ergo Jsus here is claiming that he is the beginning and the end -- a god. It isn't found in early manuscripts which means that the "god makers" who modified the GT as it went along added it to support Jsus as a god. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
Netanel		#38	[-]
Posts: 1729 (06/18/09 09:01:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	weboh, Just a word of advice, IIRC, Proteus is very learned regarding the Greek language, so I don't know if you will get any further trying to tell him what the Greek in the GT means than you did trying to tell us what the Hebrew in the Tanach means. Notice how ein sof doesn't calls himself-- in the GT, "the first and the last"; and this is because he is not human and would never need to put himself last in a need to come first. This statement is confusing. Please explain what you intended for it to mean.
ProfBenTziyyon		#39	[-]
Posts: 2156 (06/18/09 13:09:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It is noteworthy that, while the Textus Receptus uses capital Greek letters Α and Ω to represent the words alpha and omega (the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet) on all four occasions that this expression occurs ("Yohanan's Hallucination" 1:8, 11; 21:6; 22:13), both of the standard Hebrew translations of the Greek Garbage [the one due to Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890) and the one due to Isaac Edward Zalkinson (1820-1883)] use אָלֶף וְתָו "alef and tav" or הָאָלֶף וְהַתָּו "the alef and the tav" (the names of the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet, spelt out in full). http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
weboh		#40	[-]
Posts: 19 (06/18/09 14:45:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sophiee1 wordeth: Weboh, alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet. Omega is the last letter of the Greek alphabet. Ergo Jsus here is claiming that he is the beginning and the end -- a god. This is an oversimplification, and I expected more from you. You take any more from that statement, that he claims to be the first and last letter of what the early church needed to know. An stretch and an oversimplification. Natenel wordeth: This statement is confusing. Please explain what you intended for it to mean. G-d would never say "I am the last," since he infinitely above human. Just a word of advice, IIRC, Proteus is very learned regarding the Greek language, so I don't know if you will get any further trying to tell him what the Greek in the GT means than you did trying to tell us what the Hebrew in the Tanach means. Someone (i.e. Proteus) who has been known to "greek is easy"? I already know isn't very learned in it, after such a remark. None of the biblical languages are easy. ProfBenTziyyon wordeth: It is noteworthy that, while the Textus Receptus uses capital Greek letters Α and Ω to represent the words alpha and omega (the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet) on all four occasions that this expression occurs ("Yohanan's Hallucination" 1:8, 11; 21:6; 22:13), both of the standard Hebrew translations of the Greek Garbage [the one due to Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890) and the one due to Isaac Edward Zalkinson (1820-1883)] use אָלֶף וְתָו "alef and tav" or הָאָלֶף וְהַתָּו "the alef and the tav" (the names of the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet, spelt out in full). It really isn't noteworthy. Alef and Tav are words in Hebrew, and doesn't have anything to do with ο Α και ο Ω.

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