I have some friends who insist the chometz prohibition during Passover includes wine because, say they, chometz refers to anything fermented.
Do you have word studies demonstrating otherwise? Is the restriction (during Passover) of leaven to grain a rabbinic decree only, or is there a persuasive
etymology for that word? My friends insist that the word chometz defined refers to anything fermented. Please help, and thanks much, in advance!
Chometz & Wine
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 Scalia |
Chometz & Wine |
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Posts: 10 (06/23/09 17:16:22) |
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Sophiee1 |
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Posts: 12357 (06/23/09 17:40:43) Moderator |
Tell your friends that chametz doesn't mean ever everything. Chametz refers to grains (wheat, barley, spelt, rye or oat) ferment, the result is
chametz -- but grapes are not one of the hundreds of species of yeast forbidden in the Torah meaning that wine
(alcohol) is perfectly permissable -- and even required for certain mitzvot.
The Passover prohibition only applies to yeast which is a product of one of five grains: wheat, barley, oat, spelt, or rye. Yeast which is the product of grapes, or its sugars, is not considered חָמֵץ (chametz) aka leavened food. There are five types of grains usually associated with chametz grapes aren't one of them Perhaps your friends didn't notice all the requirements of wine in the Torah? You might want to refer them to "What is Chametz"?
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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06/23/09 17:43:24.
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Posts: 2171 (06/23/09 18:38:17) |
Sophiee1 wrote:
__________ http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
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06/23/09 20:18:43.
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Scalia |
An example... | ||
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Posts: 11 (06/24/09 00:33:45) |
Thanks to all for your replies. Here's an example of their argument. I'd like to knock it in the head, but, alas, I lack the resources to do so.
Anyway, this is an example of their arguments:
Second, Leviticus 2:11 prohibits bringing cereal offerings to the altar with hametz, that is, anything leavened or fermented, and burning upon the altar any seor, that is, any ferment. This prohibition suggests that God could hardly have permitted fermented wine to be poured out as a libation upon the altar. Some medieval Rabbis tried to explain away this prohibition and to justify the use of fermented wine for the Passover by arguing that only grain beverages ferment. Fruit beverages, including grape juice, allegedly do not ferment. Such an attempt reflects, as Louis Ginzberg, a renowned Talmudic scholar, points out, "a general tendency of rabbinic Judaism to give religious sanction to purely secular actions." The inconsistency of the rabbinic view which excluded the possibility of fermentation for grape juice is revealed by the long-standing tradition mentioned by Maimonides, according to which the wine of the heave offering had to be "wine fresh from the press."Any help here is greatly appreciated. By the way, this is a FANTASTIC site. The moderators and contributors have answered many of my questions and I am very thankful you've all taken the time to contribute your knowledge to those of us not skilled or trained in these matters. Kind regards. |
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Sophiee1 |
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Posts: 12360 (06/24/09 08:44:51) Moderator |
Scalia, the Professor actually answered this in his previous post. Wine is not chametz. Don't confuse English with Hebrew -- which appears to be what
your debate partner is doing. They are lumping all leavened products together, although the Hebrew distinguishes chametz into five specific types of grain:
wheat, barley, rye, oats and spelt (emmer). See the word "grape" in there?
The word in Leviticus 2:11 is חמץ (chametz) only pertains to those five types of grains. The Professor is correct when he says that yeast is not necessarily chametz. We are forbidden from eating anything made of se'or during Pesach. Se'or is the fermenting agent in those five grains. No meal offering that you offer to HaShem shall be made with leaven (chametz), for no leaven (se'or) or honey may be turned into smoke as an offering by fire to HaShem. (Leviticus 2:11)BTW when someone makes a claim (as in your quote) force them to give you the source of their claim. "some Medieval Rabbis. . ." WHICH Medieval Rabbis? Names please! Source document! Otherwise it is worthless and they are just trying to dazzle you with BS. The one name given in the quote, Louis Ginzberg, was not a halachic Rabbi. He lived during American Prohibition and was part of the Conservative movement of Judaism. His opinion is just that: his opinion and has no standing to an observant Jew. Rabbi Isaac Simha Hurewitz refuted Ginzberg's argument in his Sefer ha-Mitzvot im Sefer Yad ha-Levi (Jerusalem: Zuckerman Press, 1926; rpt. Monsey: Tuvias, 2002.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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Scalia |
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Posts: 12 (06/24/09 09:33:53) |
Thank you, Sophiee! It takes me a little longer to "get" it, but I see what you mean now. And thanks to you, too, professor, for taking the time to
explain this to me.
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Sophiee1 |
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Posts: 12361 (06/24/09 10:16:35) Moderator |
NP, btw the use of Ginzberg is just a red herring (an excuse). True Ginzberg is not a halachic (Jewish law) source, but even so what he wrote during the
American prohibition is that non-fermented wine (grape juice) was permissible. He did not write that fermented wine was NOT permissible. If these folks are
trying to prove that fermented wine is forbidden then Ginzberg does nothing to support their argument.
(It is like saying a car is a motor vehicle thus all motor vehicles are cars -- leaving out trucks, buses, motorcycles, etc.). Ginzberg was trying to show that non-fermented wine was acceptable, not that fermented wine was NOT acceptable. The main problem here is that these folks are basing their belief that alcohol is forbidden in the Torah is due to faulty English translations.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Posts: 2172 (06/24/09 11:50:42) |
I have never heard such a ludicrous argument and I should very much like to know WHO these people are who think they
understand OUR language better than we do ourselves!
ProfBenTziyyon wrote:What part of wine (or the grapes from which the juice is pressed) has "swelled" as a result of fermentation? Also, as Sophie pointed out, wine is not חָמֵץ hamétz; and just because a particular product or substance CAN become fermented, that doesn't mean all possible specimens of it actually ARE fermented. However this is irrelevant because חָמֵץ hamétz means "swelled", not "fermented". http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
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06/24/09 13:03:39.
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Sophiee1 |
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Posts: 12363 (06/24/09 12:01:16) Moderator |
Mordochai, there are numerous Chrstian sects who think that alcohol is evil. Thus they have a real problem explaining away all that wine drinking in the
T'nach!
Southern Baptists, J-hovah Witnesses, Mormons to name a few.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Posts: 2175 (06/24/09 13:12:35) |
Sophiee1 wrote:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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Scalia |
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Posts: 13 (06/24/09 14:31:08) |
One slight correction, Sophiee. The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society does not prohibit moderate alcoholic consumption. You are correct about Mormons &
Southern Baptists, though. Professor, now that I understand a little of the Hebrew involved here (thanks to you & Sophiee) it is obvious my friends are
making a ludicrous argument. I find your assistance invaluable. I hope to be fluent in Hebrew some day. Kind regards.
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