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Ty, that is known as "let's throw enough mud up to obscure the truth" nonsense. You were speaking of Hebrews 9 and they couldn't refute your argument so they immediately change the subject to "Isaiah 53" and "the rabbis."

All those names they threw up -- ask them where the READ the quotes. I can guarantee you that none of them know who any of those people were or have read what they wrote. Instead they are referencing the misuse and distortions (out of context again) of these learned men They probably got those names off of a Chrstian web site, maybe Jews for Jsus But they all come from a book from the 19th century written by Chrstians named Isaiah 53 interpretation by the Rabbis and others The internet has site after site quoting early Jewish sources who recognize that the suffering servant was the messiah. The only problem is that this is not the truth. We get this misleading and partial quotes ever so often.

The original idea that Jews USED to say that Isaiah 52-53 was about the messiah but "changed" it to the nation of Israel because of the threat of Xianity during the time of Rashi (12th century CE) popped up in the 19th century.

It was the brainchild of a Chrstian named E. B. Pusey. He came up with the idea for a book entitled The 53rd Chapter of Isaiah According to Jewish Interpreters. He wrote a VERY long introduction which in itself contains many, many errors.

Two fellow Oxford men did the translations -- which are very selective (as we will see) and often mistranslated. The translations were courtesy of Driver and Neubauer. These supposed Jewish "proofs" now rebound all over the internet.

Although the title speaks of Isaiah 53, the misquotes often ignore that chapter, and often Isaiah itself, to glean misquotes and distortions from various sources.

You mentioned Rabbi Moshe Alshekh. I address him and others misused in this thread (link). Sometimes he is referred to as Mosheh el Sheikh.

Mosheh el Sheikh is the same as Moshe Alshekh. He wrote in Midrash Rabbah, Lamentations 3:49-50, 59. Yep, Midrash. Not meant to be taken literally. Isaiah 53 is a real favorite of the missionaries to distort. R' Moshe Shulman, one of our conributors, has written a series of great articles to refute them. Start with his article "What is Midrash".

Besides the outright lies about what is said by our Rabbis, the missionaries attempt to deceive people by twisting the meanings of the teachings of the Rabbis and ignoring the methodology of the Rabbis. This has led to a large amount of supposed proofs or support drawn from Rabbinic works. We will look at what a Midrash is, a few examples of Midrashic teachings and an example of their distortions.

It is well known to those familiar with Rabbinic writings that, in general, the Rabbis wrote in a style which was NEVER meant to be taken literally. We need not look to Rabbinic writings to confirm this. In Introduction to the Talmud by Moses Mielziner[1] it states: "Where the Midrash does not concern legal enactments and provisions, but merely inquires into the meaning and significance of the laws or where it only uses the words of Scripture as a vehicle to convey a moral teaching or a religious instruction and consolation, it is called a 'Midrash Agadah' Interpretation of the Agadah, homiletical interpretation."

He also has excellent articles on the over all distortion of "what the Rabbis say about Isaiah 53"

The Rabbis on Isaiah 53 - Articles dealing with the views of the Rabbis on Isaiah 53.

Distortions by Missionaries about what the Rabbis teach: Part 1

Distortions by Missionaries about what the Rabbis teach: Part 2

My Response to Dr. Michael Brown's objection to one of my articles in Volume 4 of his book.

Mysteries of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai and Isaiah 53

Let's discuss those names they threw out at you.

Mosheh el Sheikh is the same as Moshe Alshekh.was the darshon in the city of Tzfat during the time of the Ari. He divides his commentary. The first part is based on the Tanchuma and applies it to Moshaic, and the second follows he Talmud and applies it to Moses. Page 269 Driver/Neubauer, near the bottom of the page.

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"9-12 These verses also are all of them hard, and difficult to fix the sense of, though we shall not touch on everything which might be noticed. Our Rabbis, I see, have in two places expounded verse 12 of MOSES our Master, each MIDRASH possessing its own particular features ; and we may at least admit that the passage does allude to him, though any one adopting this opinion is bound to explain what connection subsists between the verse relating to MOSES and those which precede it.

I think myself that properly these refer to him likewise; after having stated that the just one did good to his age, not only during his li9fetime, by carrying their sicknesses, but also in his death, when BECAUSE OF DROUGHT AND JUDGMENT HE WAS TAKEN OUT OF THE WORLD in order to make atonement for them, the prophet now procees................

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(now near the bottom of page 270)...

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for he 'made his grave with the wicked,' i.e. MOSES, who as our Rabbis say, was buried from the Promised Lnd, together with the wicked ones who died in the wilderness; for those were unworthy to enter into the world to come, had not MOSES borne the disgrace of being buried by their side, in order that he might bring them into it with himself. And we cannot be wrong in interpreting the 'wicked' here of those who perished in the wilderness for the SIN OF THE SPIES. FOR THE Rabbis themselves explain he was numbered with the transgressors (verse 12) similarly. Moses was not, however, buried solely with these; in the wilderness rested also Qorah, wo was ......

אלעזר בן קליר aka R' Elazar aka Eliezer HaKalir as your debaters called him was a poet who lived in the between the 6th and 10th centuries of the common era. Again, this poet is known for writing poetry and hymns based on midrash. You might as well take a song about Santa coming to town and use it to put Santa Clause into the trinity.

Herz Homberg lived in the 18th century CE for heavens sake! He was of the early radical Reform movement -- the one who offered to have all their followers convert to Chrstianity if the Chrstians would not kill them. From R' Moshe Shulman's article Moshe Ibn Crispin on Isaiah 53

His many activities after leaving Germany to spread his ideas to Austrian Jews included, setting up a system of schools that were devoid of the teaching of Judaism, he was a censor of Jewish books, and tried to have all the yeshivos closed. His four sons converted to Chrstianity. In his book on his beliefs, 'Benei Zion' he denied belief in a Messiah, denied all traditional Jewish customs, and argued that Judaism and Chrstianity were essentially the same. To missionaries this person is an authoritative voice of Judaism!

The point is that if we are going to discuss what the 'Rabbis' believe, we need to know that these sources quoted are really Rabbis, or respected mainstream Orthodox religious scholars. Not heretics or people who are ignorant of what the Rabbis really teach. Just being born Jewish does not make one an expert in what Judaism teaches, nor does it make what the person writes 'Judaism.' Let us now start our examination of Moshe Ibn Crispin.

Then these fools mentioned Rashi? Amazing! Rashi is the one they usually say CHANGED the Jewish meaning of Isaiah 53 to Israel from the messiah. Just goes to show that all these people were doing was throwing mud up to try to obsfucate the situation. Rashi clearly stated that the servant in Isaiah 53 is Israel! Amazing they'd even bring him up!

Ibn Ezra wrote:

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"As to the meaning of the chastisement of our peace, it is well known that all the time that Israel is in the humiliation of exile the nations will have peace, for do you not find it written of the time of deliverance that it will be a time of distress (Dan 12:1)?

And again, when those who had been sent back word that the whole earth was sitting still and at rest, that the angel answered and said, Until when wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem (Zech 1:2) which implies that Jerusalem will not receive mercy during the whole time that the nations are at rest."

So long as the gentiles are in prosperity, there is trouble for Israel, but when HaShem delivers Israel, there will be a time through Israels stipes there is healing for us

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So, Ty, because you brought up an argument they simply couldn't refute they changed the subject They threw out a lot of names hoping you'd be impressed and wouldn't check to see who these people were and what they really said.

Good thing you know about Messiah Truth, isn't it?