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Ephraim7 |
The serpent |
Lead | |
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I realize this topic has been discussed to death many times over but I would like to know from the Judaic perspective exactly who or what the serpent was and
more importantly WHY did he tempt Chava? What did the serpent stand to gain from such an act? Xtians stand by their unfounded claim that the serpent was the
devil (satan) but we know better.
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Rabbi Daniel |
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It's ok.
I've said this many times and it's worth repeating again. Xtianity didn't just make up a religion. They STOLE OURS! So Judaism does teach that the serpent was a manifestation of the evil inclination because it was not yet a part of humanity until after he sinned. That being said, even though it may "sound like," they have it "right," their serpent is not our serpent. Their devil/satan is not our satan. Their concept of temptation is not our concept of temptation, and on and on and on... Again: Yes, their story sounds like our story because they STOLE it from us. Even so, the two have nothing in common. Lastly, the serpent tempted Chava so that she'd feed Adam, he'd die, and the serpent would get Chava. The last liberals the world ever saw were the Egyptians who sat Joseph's brothers down and fed them meat even though they despised meat eaters. Genuine liberals tolerate the opinions of others.
Today's faux liberals do not tolerate any other opinion and if one exists it has to be squashed. |
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Ephraim7 |
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Would it be safe to interpret that the serpent was Hashem testing Adam and Chava?
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Rabbi Daniel |
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Sure, but that applies to everything,
The last liberals the world ever saw were the Egyptians who sat Joseph's brothers down and fed them meat even though they despised meat eaters. Genuine liberals tolerate the opinions of others.
Today's faux liberals do not tolerate any other opinion and if one exists it has to be squashed. |
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avivai |
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going slightly off topic...
would it be correct to say that as a result of adam and eve letting the serpent convince them to eat the forbidden fruit they were punished with things... 1) they would now be mortal and die 2) adam would have to earn his bread by the sweat of his brow 3) chava would now give birth in pain and that by implication, these conditions did not exist before the sin, i.e. they were immortal, not having to work for food and she would have given birth with no pain. immortal doesn't sound right....only G-d is immortal (right?) ok, i would appreciate being straightened out on this matter. thanks, aviva |
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Rabbi Daniel |
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You've gotten it right on all counts.
Good question on the immortality issue. The information you seek is that whereas we now have to experience death to atone for much sin, pre-Eden's sin we could have moved on without having had to die. Like Eliyahu, who ascended to heaven without dying. The academic said, "Why don't you put him in an institution, have a life of your own?" The Jewish mother responded, "What meaning would my life have?" |
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Pamela 1965 |
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Most movies always show Adam somewhere in the garden when Eve was tempted but I notice reading Genesis that Adam was right there with her when they were
tempted. Also from what I understand Adam knew better but Eve was deceived and yet Adam did nothing to stop his wife from eating the fruit. In fact he blamed
Eve for eating the fruit.
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UriYosef |
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avivai wrote:If I may chime in here... "immortal" indeed doesn't sound right. Remember the other important tree specifically mentioned in the Garden of Eden account - the Tree of Life - the fruit of which Adam & Havah were allowed to eat, and which would enable them to be "immortal". HaShem's immortality is unconditional. UriYosef
Our raison d'être:
WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!! |
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Rabbi Daniel |
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Pamela,
That's why you shouldn't watch movies. Uri, While true it does nothing for her question other than repeat it. [Which is why I didn't go into it.] Before the sin they had immortality. After the sin they could have eaten from the Tree of Life and regained the immortality they lost. Her question was how is anyone but Hashem immortal? Oh, so maybe you're commneting on her comment about "immortality." Immortality is a state of being eternal. If it comes and goes... so maybe that's not being immortal. I hear ya. The academic said, "Why don't you put him in an institution, have a life of your own?" The Jewish mother responded, "What meaning would my life have?" |
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Pamela 1965 |
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Well I know that God and Angels are immortal and I know that our souls or spirits are immortal. It would be nice to be physical immortal. Who on earth wants to
get old and die? Of course it happens to us all. There is nothing we can do to stop it.
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Rabbi Daniel |
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I know what you mean but you know in the movies about guys who live forever , they're always wishing to get it over with already?
P.S. angels aren't immortal. Granted they don't get clogged arteries or heart attacks but they were created and when their mission is over they get uncreated. That's wose than dying but they don't care. They're angels. The academic said, "Why don't you put him in an institution, have a life of your own?" The Jewish mother responded, "What meaning would my life have?" |
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avivai |
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thanks alot for all comments. i heard something i have never heard before...and never thought much about, i guess. so, if they were physically immortal before
the sin, then eating from the tree of life would not have had any effect on them, right? what they did not have was the knowledge of good and evil...so they
did not know what is good and what is evil? because they obviously did have freewill and chose to disobey G-d and go ahead and eat the forbidden fruit. but
they did not know this was 'evil'?
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Larry |
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Rabbi Daniel wrote:How do you reconcile that with Rashi's comment on the words למה זה תשאל in Gen. 32.30? L |
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Rabbi Daniel |
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Avivai,
No, they still had free will. The only point for creation was to give mnakind free will. It was just a diffeent free will. One we can't really grasp because we have no such experience but, as I've heard it said, before knowing good and evil they knew truth and falsehood. And speaking of changing names.... Larry, Does Rashi there say angels could get clogged arteries and heart attacks?
Please donate to the following ENDANGERED SPECIES!
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Larry |
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Rabbi Daniel wrote:I haven't changed my name and I also do not respond well to sarcasm. Rashi does not say anything about clogged arteries or heart attacks, but he does imply very strongly that angels do not get "uncreated" but survive from one mission to the next; he says: "Why is it that you ask: (Gen. Rabbah 78:4) We have no permanent name. Our names change, (all) according to the service we are commanded [to do] in the mission upon which we are sent." [JPT] |
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Rabbi Daniel |
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I did start last post with Avivai and then switched to you. So the play on words [name change], in simple context, was switching from her to you. I imagine
most took it that way but, then again, most impressions weren't skewed by having two names.
No reason to beat a dead horse with no name. The good news is, A) You seem to have responded well enough to my... midwestern humor, so don't sell yourself short. And 2) You've now asked a question that everyone reading it can actually understand. I'd offer in return, 5 verses earlier Rashi says this angel is specifically the governing angel of Esau. Certainly an angel whose task has not yet been completed. How he then says what he says in verse 30 is a question preceding your question. Is Eisav's angel speaking in the queen's English? Then how does an angel with one job say he has many jobs? If we say that Eisav's angel is speaking for all angels, maybe he is *implying* that something of substance can give a blessing but not something whose substance is as fleeting as his task. Then your question falls away. One angel=one task, then poof. Maybe this angel is speaking no more for every angel than I was speaking for every mid-westerner? So maybe there are angels that come and go as there task is done. And maybe there are angels who get new ID tags with new jobs who won't go till later. And maybe there are angels whose one job lasts the entirety of this world before they go. Some Kabbalists probably know with a measure of certainty. I know that if someone s going to say, in one breath, that G-d and angels are immortal, it is worthwhile and even prasieworthy to clarify that those two spiritual entities, if you will, have no such similarity. G-d was, is, and always will be. Angels were created by G-d, for their function in this universe, and whatever there longevity, their day and time will come. You may like you're question better than my answer. One we both can live with.
Please donate to the following ENDANGERED SPECIES!
Preciousness of life.
Family structure.
Family values.
G-dly values.
Disarm a liberal. Vote for values.
Congratulations MAINE for saying NO to gay marriages!!! |
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Pamela 1965 |
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So could you please explain why angels arent immortal, I always thought they were?
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Rabbi Daniel |
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I did.
You're thinking of them like humans. Do they grow old? Can you kill them? Angels were created. Things with a beginning have an end.
Please donate to the following ENDANGERED SPECIES!
Preciousness of life.
Family structure.
Family values.
G-dly values.
Disarm a liberal. Vote for values.
Congratulations MAINE for saying NO to gay marriages!!! |
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elect.theseason |
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My master Daniel. Why do both Nachash and Moschiach add up to 358 in gematria? |
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Rabbi Daniel |
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Opposite ends of the same spectrum.
The balance in good vs. evil.
Please donate to the following ENDANGERED SPECIES!
Preciousness of life.
Family structure.
Family values.
G-dly values.
Disarm a liberal. Vote for values.
Congratulations MAINE for saying NO to gay marriages!!! |
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elect.theseason |
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Cool. Thanks.
Your statement reminds of of the image of the otz chaim, with its pillar of severity and the pillar of mercy, and the middle pillar of equilibrium. |
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