Authority and authenticity of the Talmud

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Sophiee1

Authority and authenticity of the Talmud

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(07/02/09 09:12:09)

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Posted by Samaritana in the "Ask the Rabbi" forum. I have pasted it here as well.

Shalom Rabbanim,

I converted to Judaism about 10 1/2 years ago and was never questioned about my sincerity- probably because my closing statement on my conversion application was "I accept the authority of Hashem, halacha and the sages as being higher than my own."However, I have recently had contact with some old friends of mine in the US who happen to be Christian, and there were a few questions about the Oral Law I was unable to answer, and it bothers me. I would greatly appreciate it if someone could answer the following questions:

1. Was Rabbi Yehudah HaNassi's (head of the Sanhedrin and redactor of the Mishnah_{, the Oral Torah written down)}choice of which school of tradition(-s) to record as Mishnah Divine Inspiration/Divine Providence, or a reaction to the spirit of the times (whatever that was)? Why did one school of tradition become "Mishnah" and any others known at the time become "beraitot" (secondary, supplemental or counter-point)?

2. If the origin of a given law is attributed to "halacha l'Moshe miSinai," meaning it was a tradition of our people that was accepted as law, is the authority to make that particular decision biblical ("According to all that they shall teach you, you shall do.")?

3. When it says (in Proverbs), "Do not forsake the teaching of your mother," does thatrefer to the traditions of our people? Also, if one does forsake the traditions of our people, specifically by abandoning practices that are attributed to no other source than "halacha l'Moshe miSinai," is that person actually violating Torah? If so, how? By separating themselves from the community (can't remember where that prohibition is written- can someone refresh my memory, please?), or by rebelling against the authority of the rabbis (who recorded certain traditions of our people as law)?

Thank you,
Yael Q.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Sophiee1

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(07/02/09 09:53:54)

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Samaritana wrote:

1. Was Rabbi Yehudah HaNassi's (head of the Sanhedrin and redactor of the Mishnah_{, the Oral Torah written down)}choice of which school of tradition(-s) to record as Mishnah Divine Inspiration/Divine Providence, or a reaction to the spirit of the times (whatever that was)?

The Mishna is not the entire Oral Torah. The entire Oral Torah is comprised of both the Mishna and the Gemara (I'm sure you know that, but for the sake of our readers I want to make it clear).

The Mishna was not the work of one man, Yehuda HaNasi, as great a man as we was. He was the final redactor of the oral law. He completed the Mishna, he did not begin it.

The Mishna was compiled over hundreds of years by the תנאים (Tannaim). Here is a chart from the Wikipedia article on the Tannaim:

Note that prior to the Tannaim were the Zugot, from about 200 BCE to the early common era. These were the keepers of the oral law prior to the Tannaim. For example, R' Hillel and R' Shammai were part of the Zugot.

First Generation of the Tannaim was led by Rabban Yohanan benZakkai and was done circa 40 - 80 CE. That puts us within 7 - 37 years of Jsus' supposed death. (It is still after that time but just wanted to point out the Mishna did not appear from the head of Ze-us fully formed in 200 CE).

Second Generation: Rabban Gamliel of Yavneh, Rabbi Eliezer and Rabbi Yehoshua's generation, the teachers of Rabbi Akiva .

Third Generation: The generation of Rabbi Akiva and hiscolleagues.

Fourth Generation: The generation of Rabbi Meir , Rabbi Yehuda and their colleagues.

Fifth Generation: Rabbi Yehudah haNasi 'sgeneration.

Sixth Generation: The interim generation between the Mishnah and the Talmud : Rabbis Shimon ben Judah HaNasi and Yehoshua ben Levi , etc.

Judah haNasi oversaw the FINAL compilation of Mishna in 170-200 CE. Therefore the Chrstians who brought up these questions to disprove the oral law have very limited understanding of it -- do they honestly think that one man (R' Yehuda HaNasi) redacted the Mishna all by himself out of thin air?

The Mishna is the oral law itself written in very cryptic form. There are six orders each with a number of tractates, called masekhot. Each masekhot is divided into smaller units called mishnayot.

First Order: Zeraim ("Seeds"). 11 tractates. It deals with agricultural laws and prayers.

Second Order: Mo'ed ("Festival Days"). 12 tractates. This pertains to the laws of the Sabbath and the Festivals.

Third Order: Nashim ("Women"). 7 tractates. Concerns marriage and divorce.

Fourth Order: Neziqin ("Damages"). 10 tractates. Deals with civil and criminal law.

Fifth Order: Qodashim ("Holy things"). 11 tractates. This involves sacrificial rites, the Temple, and the dietary laws.

Sixth order: Taharot ("Purity"). 12 tractates. This pertains to ritual and the laws of family purity.

This then is the Mishna. It was the Amoraim who later created Gemara. With me so far?

So the Mishna is a very brief outline of the laws of the Oral Law. Cryptic. Abrupt even.

The second half of the Talmud is the Gemara. (So Mishna + Gemara = Talmud). This comes later than the Mishna thanks to the Amoraim.

The Amoraim are the Rabbis who examined every law in the Mishna and expounded upon them. The goal of an Amorah was to explain, to clarify and often to resolve contradictions between one Mishna and another in order to come to the correct ruling - the Halacha.

There are two types of midrash found in the Gemara -- midrash halacha (discussions of how to apply the halacha) and midrash aggadah (stories meant to make a moral point).

For a 300 year period ending in 500CE the Amoraim in Babylon and Jerusalem set about analyzing and commenting on Mishna. But Gemara is not limited to just analyzing Mishna. It goes into some oral law that was not included in the Mishna (Tosefta).

Taken together the Mishna and Gemara are called "Talmud." As you pointed out there is a Jerusalem and a Babylonian Talmud. Both used the Mishna as the basis of the commentary of their Gemara.

I went into this detail to point out 2 things to you:

1. Mishna was not the work of one man, e.g. Yehudah haNasi. It was an exhaustive work by many men.

2. It is easy to confuse "the law" with the commentary on the law -- or allegory around the law, etc.

You asked:

Why did one school of tradition become "Mishnah" and any others known at the time become "beraitot" (secondary, supplemental or counter-point)?

Again, the question by these Chrstians is based on a false assumption. There are around 18,000 beraitot, perhaps the most famous being the Tosefta which is actually much larger than the Mishna. Beraitot are sayings (teachings) of the sages and not a writing down of halacha as is the Mishna itself.

ברייתא (Baraita) are not Mishna. It was forbidden to write down the oral law and took quite a bit of arguing before the תנאים agreed to do it. It was only when they realized that the oral law might be lost due to the Diaspora that they agreed to the Mishna. So even though some of the baraita were written by the Tannaim they are not Mishna.

Baraita usually start with "T'nya" which means "It was orally taught" or sometimes with "T'nu Rabbanan" which translates to "Our Rabbis have orally taught."

Mishna starts with "T'nan" which means "We have orally taught." R' Aryeh Kaplan (Z"L) explained:

There was a tradition that if there was danger that the Oral Torah be forgotten, it could be put in writing. It is thus written, "It is a time to work for G-d, make void His Torah" (Psalms 119:126). This also implies that when there is danger of the Torah becoming voided and forgotten, it is a time to work for God and remedy the situation…

Since the tradition required that the Oral Torah be written under certain conditions, the commandment to write a Torah scroll now also includes an obligation to write or purchase books of Mishnah and Talmud containing the Oral Torah.
Besides the Mishnah, other volumes were compiled by the students of Rabbi Yehudah during this period. These included the Tosefta which follows the order of the Mishnah, as well as the Mechilta commentary on Exodus, the Sifra on Leviticus, and the Sifri on Numbers and Deuteronomy. Works from outside Rabbi Yehudah's school went by the name of Baraita. Not too long after this, the Jerusalem Talmud (Talmud Yerushalmi) was compiled by Rabbi Yochanan.

This link might interest you: www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/hakdama/5-2.htm

If there was a question about certain teachings that differed from the consensus memory of the oral law they were kept as beraitot and became part of the discussion of the mitzvot (scholarly debate) which is the Gemara. So beraitot helps us to understand some of the mitzvot found in the Mishna.

You might be interested in "From Midrash to Halacha", Danby's "The Mishnah", and Klausner's "Ha-Baith ha-sheni bi-g'dullato".

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Last Edited By: Sophiee1 07/02/09 10:16:48. Edited 1 times.

Sophiee1

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(07/02/09 10:48:19)

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Samaritana wrote:
2. If the origin of a given law is attributed to "halacha l'Moshe miSinai," meaning it was a tradition of our people that was accepted as law, is the authority to make that particular decision biblical ("According to all that they shall teach you, you shall do.")

I'm not quite sure I understand the question! But let me take a crack at it and if I'm off, please ask again. The oral law is not "a tradition of our people." The oral law, just as the written law, were given to us by G-d. The were accepted as law because they ARE law.

The written law tells us "what to do." The oral law tells us HOW to do it. The written Torah tells us that the written and oral exist: The written Torah does tell you about the oral one. It tells you about it BEFORE there is a written one.

Quote:
Ex 12:49 "The same Torah shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."

What Torah? Moses hasnt been to Sinai yet! So the Torah is the oral one. The Torah is spoken of again in Exodus 13:9, 16:4:

Quote:
I will test them to see whether or not they will keep My law.

What mitzvot (Torah)? They are in the desert eating mana. They havent yet made it to Sinai? What Torah is G-d speaking of???

Again in chapter 16:

Quote:
16:28 G-d told Moses [to say to the Israelites], 'How long will you refuse to keep My commandments and My Torah?

Again what Torah? The written Torah has not yet been given!

Move on to Exodus 18. Moses father in law (Jethro) tells Moses to appoint judges saying:

Quote:
Exodus 18:19-20 You must be G-d's representative for the people, and bring [their] concerns to G-d. 18:20 Clarify the decrees and laws for [the people]. Show them the path they must take, and the things they must do.

The Hebrew for the word translated as law is ha torot (the Torah).

The Torah? Yet Moses still hasnt been to Mount Sinai! He has not yet received the written Torah yet Moses is making judgments based on the Torah!

The ORAL Torah.

And note that he is acting as judge and then appoints judges to interpret the laws in each individual case.

So obviously there IS a Torah prior to the giving of the tablets at Sinai. Did it disappear when the written was given???

Now lets move along to when G-d gives Moses the tablets, and the written instructions for HIMSELF (Moses).

Read Exodus 24:12 -- read the entire verse (though it does not change the meaning of the citation):

Quote:
'

And HaShem said to Moshe: Come up unto me on the mountain and remain ('be') there. I shall give to you the stone tablets, the Torah, and the Mitzvah, which I have written [for you] to teach them.

Again, Moses was to receive the tablets of the covenant (luhot ha-brit) that HaShem wrote on stone. The Torah refers to the written Torah, and the Mitzvah refers to the "how-to" of Torah observance. Which I have written refers to the written Torah; for you to teach them refers to the oral Torah (Mishnah).

Write these words for yourself, for according to these [oral] words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.` (Exodus 34:27)

Quote:
Vayomer Adonay el-Moshe ktov-lecha et-hadevarim ha'eleh ki al-pi hadevarim ha'eleh karati itcha brit ve'et-Yisra'el.

Write these words for YOURSELF. Not for Israel. Not for the people, but for himself!

Hashem tells Moshe first "write for yourself these things," and then says "for according to (al pi) these things I have made a covenant with you and the Children and Israel. This quote tells us both to write it down transmit it orally. The literal meaning of al pi is to teach by word of mouth.

The Jewish sages tell us that from Exodus 34:27 we learn that things that are written down may not be recited by heart, and things that are meant to be transmitted orally may not be written down.

Go to a Shul and you will see the Torah being READ, not recited from memory.

Quote:
This teaches that laws received as oral traditions may not be recited from written texts (i.e., you are not allowed to commit them to writing), and those that are written [the Pentateuch, Prophets, and Hagiographa, which together are called the Tanach] may not be recited orally (that is, from memory). R. Yehuda b. Nachmani,

The Midrash relates the following (Shemot Rabbah 47:1):

Quote:
"Write for yourself these words, because based on these words I made a covenant with Yisrael." (Shemot 34:27) This is similar to the verse, "I will write for them most of My Torah; they were regarded as something alien." (Hoshea 8:12) When Hashem appeared to Moshe on Sinai to give Yisrael the Torah, He taught Moshe the Torah, Mishna, Talmud, and Aggada as it says, "G-d spoke all of these statements" (Shemot 20:1) -- even what a student asks his teacher was taught to Moshe at that time. After he learned all of this from the mouth of Hashem, Hashem instructed Moshe to teach it to Yisrael. Moshe said to Hashem, "Master of the world, I will write it down for them." Hashem responded, "I do not want to give it to them in writing, because it is revealed to me that idol worshippers will rule over them and take it from them, and they will be disgraced by the idolators. I will give them the written Torah, but the Mishna, Talmud, and Aggada, will be given to them orally. Therefore, if the idol worshippers enslave Yisrael, Yisrael will remain separate from them." That is what Hashem meant when he said to the prophet (Hoshea) "[If] I will write for them most of My Torah; they were regarded as something alien." What will I do for Yisrael? I will give them the written Torah, and the Mishna, Talmud and Aggada orally. "Write for yourself these words" -- of the written Torah; "because based on these words I made a covenant" -- this refers to the oral Talmud which separates Yisrael from the idol worshippers.

The first half of the verse talks of a written version("Transcribe..."), while the rest speaks of the oral version (al pi) of teaching and transmitting Torah. When we speak of Torah we speak of: "she-bikhtav" (written) and "she-be'al peh" (oral) both of which are mentioned in this verse.

Deuteronomy 4:13 (HaShem) told you of His covenant that He commanded you to observe, the Ten Declarations, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets. 14 HaShem commanded me at that time to teach you decrees and ordinances. . .

TEACH you. Orally. Sitting down and reading the book was not sufficient. Teaching (explaining the laws aka the oral law) is told time and time again in the written Torah.

Quote:
Exodus 18:20 Teach them the decrees and laws, and show them the way to live and the duties they are to perform.

Teach them orally! The decrees AND laws. What is the difference? One is oral and one is written.

Isnt teaching explaining what the written says? Giving detail that is missing?

Quote:
Exodus 35:34 And he has given both him and Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, the ability to teach others.

Leviticus 10:11 and you must teach the Israelites all the decrees HaShem has given them through Moses."

Deuteronomy 4:1 Hear now, O Israel, the decrees and laws I am about to teach you.

And then read:

Quote:
Joshua 22:5 But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of HaShem gave you

Commandments and laws. Two things, not one.

Quote:
Deuteronomy 4:9 Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them slip from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them.

Teach your children what YOUR eyes have seen. Not what is written in the Torah, but what they heard and saw for themselves and what was taught to them by Moses. The ORAL law.

This is repeated

Quote:
Deuteronomy 4:10 Remember the day you stood before HaShem your G-d at Horeb, when he said to me, "Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children."

The laws that Moses taught (not just wrote down in the written Torah) were to be passed down:

Quote:
Deuteronomy 4:14 And HaShem directed me at that time to teach you the decrees and laws you are to follow in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess

And perhaps best of all:

Quote:
Deuteronomy 5:31 But you stay here with me so that I may give you all the commands, decrees and laws you are to teach them to follow in the land I am giving them to possess."

Not to give them to read. If they were all in the written Torah what is the need to teach them?

And dont forget that Moses goes on to tell the Israelites to LISTEN to the teachers. He tells us that they sit in his (Moses) place and we must listen to their explanation of the written laws because they possess the knowledge.

Quote:
Deuteronomy 17: 11 Act according to the law they teach you and the decisions they give you. Do not turn aside from what they tell you, to the right or to the left.

Long winded I know, but I wanted to make it clear to you that the oral mitzvot are and always have been part of the Torah. It is quite literally impossible to follow the mitzvot in the Torah without the oral explanations that go along with it.

You might want to read "The Oral Tradition" .

Samaritana wrote:
3. When it says (in Proverbs), "Do not forsake the teaching of your mother," does that refer to the traditions of our people? Also, if one does forsake the traditions of our people, specifically by abandoning practices that are attributed to no other source than "halacha l'Moshe miSinai," is that person actually violating Torah? If so, how? By separating themselves from the community (can't remember where that prohibition is written- can someone refresh my memory, please?), or by rebelling against the authority of the rabbis (who recorded certain traditions of our people as law)?

The actual quote from Proverbs 6:20 is:

My son, keep the commands of your father, and do not forsake the instruction of your mother.

Read the rest of it and you have your answer:

20. My son, keep the commands of your father, and do not forsake the instruction of your mother.		כ.
21. Bind them always upon your heart, tie them upon your neck.		כא.
22. When you walk, it shall lead you; when you lie down, it shall guard you, and when you awaken, it shall speak for you.		כב.
23. For a commandment is a candle, and the Torah is light, and disciplining rebukes are the way of life;

Proverbs isn't Torah -- it simply re-enforces Torah. Yet it clearly says to keep the מצות / mitzvot of your fathers.

It says to not forsake the תֹּורַת / torot (Torah) of your mother.

Very clear, isn't it?

A tradition is not a mitzvah (halacha), but G-d granted the right to "build fences" around them to the Rabbis and leaders of the Jewish people. The purpose of these "fences" is to keep us from purposefully or accidentally straying from them.

Rabbi means teacher. They are educated in Torah. Who knows a subject better than the experts?

Rabbis do not change G-d's laws. They do interpret them when there is a question (with gezeirah or minhag). A Rabbinical fence might be something like "If we can't light a fire on Shabbat then we can't do anything that creates fire such as a spark that starts a car." They are simply applying the mitzvah to a situation that never happened before. They didn't make up a mitzvah. See the point?

When we quote a rabbinical source we are quoting one well learned and versed on the subject. I recommend you read the article "Have the Rabbis Changed the Laws?"

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Last Edited By: Sophiee1 07/02/09 10:54:03. Edited 1 times.

Samaritana

"halacha l'Moshe miSinai"

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(07/02/09 20:52:56)

"Halacha l'Moshe miSinai" is a term my husband taught me. He said it was used to refer to laws which, on rare occasions, source could be found neither in the written nor oral Torah.

In general, thank you for your very detailed response to my questions. Not sure I would be able to remember all that stuff, but maybe I could print myself a cheat sheet...

- Yael Q.

Sophiee1

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(07/02/09 21:59:31)

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Halacha l'Moshe miSinai is found at least three times in the Talmud, (Pe'ah 2:6; Eduy. 8:7 and Yad. 4:3). The phrase itself means "the Torah from Moses from Sinai." Thus Halacha l'Moshe miSinai are Sinaitic mitzvot. They are not derivative. they are not takkanot or gezerot.

Rambam defined Halacha l'Moshe miSinai as mitzvot that have no intrinsic connection to the Torah, but actually are of Sinaitic origin. This is very technical I'll grant you. Now many have disagreed with Rambam's definition. For example there are some mitzvot that have been connected via midrash with Torah (but it IS midrash so that may not be so far from Rambam after all!).

One example of Halacha L'Moshe miSinai that I've heard of is how tefillin is to be made (size, shape, color). Now tefillin is mentioned in the written Torah (you shall bind it for a sign) but what it looks like is not. So this would certainly be halacha that IS found in the written Torah.

I could be wrong, but I'm sure if I am someone will correct me!

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

ProfBenTziyyon

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Posts: 2199

(07/02/09 22:44:37)

Sophiee1 wrote:
Halacha l'Moshe miSinai is found at least three times in the Talmud, (Pe'ah 2:6; Eduy. 8:7 and Yad. 4:3).

Sophie − In addition to these three instances in the Mishnah that you have cited, the term הֲלָכָה לְמֹשֶׁה מִסִּינַי also occurs 47 times in the G'mara:-

Shabbat 28b (four times), 62a (three times), 79b, 108a
Eiruvin 4a, 97a
P'sahim 110b
Yoma 80a (twice)
Sukkah 5b, 34a, 44a (three times)
Ta'anit 3a
M'gillah 19b, 24b
Mo'éd Katan 3b (twice)
N'darim 37b
Nazir 56b
Kiddushin 38b (twice), 39a
Bava Batra 12b
Makkot 11a
Avodah Zarah 36b
Z'vahim 110b
M'nahot 29b, 32a, 32b, 35a (five times), 35b, 89a
Niddah 45a (twice), 72b

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