Ezekiel's 3rd Temple And Purpose Of Sin Offerings

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jodav	Ezekiel's 3rd Temple And Purpose Of Sin Offerings	Lead	[-]
Posts: 2 (10/09/09 05:30:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None Ezekiel talks about the 3rd temple, sacrificial system and sin offerings (ch. 40-48) Why couldn't these be Celebratory and Commemorative in nature? JD Zvi, they do not claim that their "man from the first century C.E." served as any "kind" of קׇרְבַּן פֶּֽסַח. They try to pretend that he was some kind of קׇרְבַּן חַטָּאת ("sin offering"). The קׇרְבַּן פֶּֽסַח had absolutely nothing to do with "atonement of sins" − as has been pointed out consistently on this forum, it was celebratory and commemorative in nature.
jodav		#1	[-]
Posts: 3 (10/12/09 22:16:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	No comments on this?
UriYosef		#2	[-]
Posts: 1998 (10/12/09 23:09:02) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	jodav wrote: Ezekiel talks about the 3rd temple, sacrificial system and sin offerings (ch. 40-48) Why couldn't these be Celebratory and Commemorative in nature? JD The Hebrew Bible is very specific about the various sacrificial offerings. If those were to be "celebratory and commemorative in nature", not only would that be specifically stated, but the fact that Ezekiel explicitly states that these sin sacrifices will serve as atonements throws out that possibility altogether. After all, if these were "celebratory and commemorative in nature", they would only be "symbolic" and, therefore, would not have the effect that the original sacrifical offerings had in the expiation of sins. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!! Last Edited By: UriYosef 10/12/09 23:11:35. Edited 1 times.
jodav		#3	[-]
Posts: 4 (10/13/09 02:59:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Uri "If those were to be "celebratory and commemorative in nature", not only would that be specifically stated." Does it ever do that? Does the Hebrew Bible anywhere ever state that so and so is purely celebratory and commemorative in nature? JD
ProfBenTziyyon		#4	[-]
Posts: 2476 (10/13/09 05:19:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	jodav wrote: Ezekiel talks about the 3rd temple, sacrificial system and sin offerings (ch. 40-48) Why couldn't these be Celebratory and Commemorative in nature? That's like asking why it's inappropriate to send someone a "condolences" card on his birthday. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
UriYosef		#5	[-]
Posts: 1999 (10/13/09 09:40:55) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	jodav wrote: Does it ever do that? Does the Hebrew Bible anywhere ever state that so and so is purely celebratory and commemorative in nature? Yes. Two such examples come to mind (there may be others): Numbers 5:15,18(JPT) - (15) Then the man shall bring his wife to the kohen and bring her offering for her, one tenth of an ephah of barley flour. He shall neither pour oil over it nor put frankincense on it, for it is a meal offering of jealousies, *a meal offering of remembrance, recalling iniquity. (18) Then the kohen shall stand the woman up before the Lord and expose the [hair on the] head of the woman; he shall place into her hands the remembrance meal offering*, which is a meal offering of jealousies, while the bitter curse bearing waters are in the kohen's hand. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
Sophiee1		#6	[-]
Posts: 12777 (10/13/09 10:25:46) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	jodav wrote: Does it ever do that? Does the Hebrew Bible anywhere ever state that so and so is purely celebratory and commemorative in nature? "This (Passover) is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to HaShem -a lasting ordinance. Exodus 12:14. Then Moses said to the people, "Commemorate this day, the day you came out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery, because HaShem brought you out of it with a mighty hand. . ." Exodus 13:3 "Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. . ." Exodus 12:17 The whole community of Israel must celebrate it. Exodus 12:47 "Celebrate the Feast of Matzo (Passover)" Exodus 23:15 You shall then celebrate the festival of Shavuot to G-d your L-rd, presenting a hand-delivered offering . . ." Deuteronomy 16:17 "Celebrate the Sukkot" Deuteronomy 16:13 There are more, but this should answer your question. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
UriYosef		#7	[-]
Posts: 2000 (10/13/09 17:30:11) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sophie, Based on the lead post in this thread, I believe that "jodav" was asking about offerings in Post #3, not about holidays, and that was the question I answered in Post #5. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!! Last Edited By: UriYosef 10/13/09 18:50:39. Edited 1 times.
Sophiee1		#8	[-]
Posts: 12781 (10/13/09 20:51:48) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	There is the sh'lamim -- known as the peace offering, but that is a bad translation. It is more of a sacrifice of well being and was brought to celebrate. "And you shall sacrifice there sh'lamim and eat them, rejoicing before HaShem your G-d." (Deuteronomy 27:7) "They offered sacrifices of sh'lamim there before HaShem; and Shaul and all the men of Israel held a great celebration there" (I Shemuel 11:15) סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
jodav	Sacrifice and celebratory in nature	#9	[-]
Posts: 7 (10/13/09 21:20:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sophiee, i think you're reading too much into these verses. they could have simply carried out the sacrifices AND celebrated. that wouldn't make the sacrifices celebratory in nature. Uri's quoted verses are clearer to me. JD
Sophiee1		#10	[-]
Posts: 12782 (10/14/09 06:19:50) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'm glad that you found Uri's post helpful. The sh'lamim is literally the "well being sacrifice" or "celebratory sacrifice." That was my point in mentioning it and in quoting two places in the T'nach where it is mentioned. This is the ritual of the sacrifice of well-being (sh'lamim) that one may offer to the L-RD. If he offers it for thanksgiving, he shall offer together with the sacrifice of thanksgiving unleavened cakes with oil mixed in, unleavened wafers spread with oil, and cakes of choice flour with oil mixed in, well soaked. This offering, with cakes of leavened bread added, he shall offer along with his thanksgiving sacrifice of well-being. Out of this he shall offer one of each kind as a gift to the L-Rd, it shall go to the priest who dashes the blood of well-being. And the flesh of his thanksgiving sacrifice of well-being shall be eaten on the day that it is offered; none of it shall be set aside until morning (Leviticus 7:11-15) I'm pointing out that there is a specific type of sacrifice called the sh'lamim which is for celebratory purposes - this is a direct answer to your question no "Sophiee's reading into" something. There are various types of sacrifices -- the olah (elevation offer), asham (specific types of wrong doing), chatat (accidental sins / mistakes), etc. The sh'lamim is a sacrifice of thanksgiving, of well being. Feel free to research the term sh'lamim or shelamim on the internet. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
ProfBenTziyyon		#11	[-]
Posts: 2485 (10/14/09 07:30:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sophiee1 wrote: The sh'lamim is literally the "well being sacrifice".... This is only tangentially connected with what Sophiee wrote, but still worth mentioning.... The *literal* meaning of the word שָׁלוֹם shalom is "well-being" or "welfare", although it is usually translated as "peace". The frequently mistranslated verse 6 of the third Shir hama'alot doesn't use the verb התפלל "pray" at all, but rather שאל "ask"; what it actually says is שַֽׁ֭אֲלוּ שְׁל֣וֹם יְרֽוּשָׁלִָ֑ם יִ֝שְׁלָ֗יוּ אֹֽהֲבָֽיִךְ׃ "Ask [each other] *about Y'rushalayim's welfare − may those who love you be tranquil!"* (T'hillim 122:6) ....in other words, it's an encouragement for Jews to be continually asking each other for news of how things are in the Holy City − not an instruction to "pray" for just a part (the 'piece') of it. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Tom1992		#12	[-]
Posts: 152 (10/15/09 15:16:35) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	JoDav, You wrote: Ezekiel talks about the 3rd temple, sacrificial system and sin offerings (ch. 40-48) Why couldn't these be Celebratory and Commemorative in nature? JD What causes you to ask such a question? Is it exegesis based on T'NaCh or eisegesis to prevent Jesus' sacrifice from becoming irrelevant? Tom
jodav		#13	[-]
Posts: 20 (10/16/09 12:07:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I wouldn't put it this way. When Jewish scholars face seemingly conflicting texts, passages, they do their best to find the most reasonable reconciliation. You do that. We do that. JD
Sophiee1		#14	[-]
Posts: 12807 (10/16/09 12:28:16) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Huge difference: we don't add to or subtract from Torah. Chrstians threw it out completely, yet claim to be the "fulfillment" of it and the inheritors of the "new" covenant. There are no conflicting opinions about the various qorbans (sacrifices) in the Torah. Neither is there a conflict that qorbans may only be brought in the place designated by G-d in the manner designated by G-d. Again, Chrstians ignore that. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
UriYosef		#15	[-]
Posts: 2010 (10/16/09 12:28:25) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	jodav wrote: I wouldn't put it this way. When Jewish scholars face seemingly conflicting texts, passages, they do their best to find the most reasonable reconciliation. You do that. We do that. The difference is that Jewish scholars have the wisdom and knowledge to back their rationale with reason, logic, while you use hyperbole and hope people don't "dig deeper". UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
LAGoff		#16	[-]
Posts: 51 (10/23/09 14:37:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	jodav, What first came to my mind as a motivating factor to your question is that you don't want there to be animal sacrifices at a 3rd Messianic Temple. Is this a factor?
jodav		#17	[-]
Posts: 59 (10/23/09 16:33:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	no, that's not a factor.

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