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catholic |
was jesus a real person |
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hey everyone new to the site, looks very good but in most your discussions and even on the front page you have or are showing disbelief in him i was wondering
why so? and if you could be specific. then we could discuss as your forum implies. note i do not want to convince you that Jesus is the messiah because this is
against rules neither do i want to convert you to catholic just to see some thoughts on why you seem to or not believe in Jesus
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Sophiee1 |
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Welcome to the forum.
The existence of a real person who was the prototype for the Jsus of the Greek Text (GT) is immaterial to Judaism. It doesn't matter (from a Jewish POV) if Jsus ever lived or if he is entirely (or partly) fictional. There is no historic evidence that Jsus (as depicted) in the GT ever lived. But it really wouldn't matter to Judaism if he had or hadn't. When we do discuss whether or not Jsus existed on the forum it tends to be from the perspective of historical evidence. But, again, it really doesn't matter.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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If he was a "real person", he wasn't a very nice one; the person portrayed in the "gospels" was a nasty, mean-spirited, hypocritical, violent racist. I recommend you read Rav Ariel bar Tzadok's essay Yeshu HaNotzri: the man in his own words − a Torah view of the founder of christianity. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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UriYosef |
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catholic,
You ask:Here is an article by Rabbi Shraga Simmons - Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus - that will give you a good overview. And here is a web-site - Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus - where you can order a very good book on the subject. UriYosef
Our raison d'être:
WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!! |
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Sophiee1 |
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There is also a thread in this forum that may help. Why Jews Know Jsus was a false messiah
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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catholic |
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if Jesus is a false messiah. i would like to argue it on a different form, if the rules allow which i don't think they do because that is a form of
proselytizing, but i do agree that jews have their points to not believe in him. but i have my points to believe in him which can be found in hebrew scripture.
but again this is not allowed in the rules and it would require for me in some form to teach judaism which is also against the rules. i was wondering what
proof do you have that Jesus as shown in the bible is not real.
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UriYosef |
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catholic wrote:There is absolutely no evidence that jc is in the Hebrew scriptures. I direct you to our Counter-Missionary page where many of these false Christian apologetics are refuted. If that is not sufficient for you, I can direct you to other excellent resources where you will find additional refutations of such false claims. UriYosef
Our raison d'être:
WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!! |
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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catholic wrote:
catholic wrote:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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catholic |
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i cannot quote in hebrew because i can not find those bibles anywhere. and by those i mean the holy torah. anyway i base my assumptions on Zak chapter 4 which
in it i believe it talks about how the messiahs name will be Jesus. i also have the Aramaic text of the testament of Levi.
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Sophiee1 |
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Just Google and you will find many copies of the Jewish bible in Hebrew all over the internet. I'd guess you can't quote in Hebrew because you
can't read Hebrew.
It's a pretty safe bet given your comment about Zechariah 4. It doesn't say a thing about Jsus. It really helps if you read these in context. line 6 clearly says this is the word of Hashem to Zerubbabel. What did Zerubbabel ever have to do with Jsus? Nothing. And did you note that Zechariah 4 speaks of TWO messiahs (anointed ones)? Nary a mention of the name Jsus. And who cares about the testament of Levi? It isn't part of the T'nach now is it?
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Sophiee1 wrote:
The curious expression בְּנֵי־הַיִּצְהָר b'nei hayitz'har literally translates as "sons of the oil", or more colloquially "oiled men". This may or may not mean "messiahs" or "anointed ones", but the fact is that the verse doesn't SAY messiahs. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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Sophiee1 |
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First rule of research: do your homework. I didn't even check. My bad. Thanks Mordochai.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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It's simple if you remember that the noun מָשִֽׁיחַ occurs 19 times in the
N'viyim − seventeen of which are in Sh'muél, one in Y'shayahu and one in Trei Asar (in Ḥavakkuk).
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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UriYosef |
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catholic wrote:In my last response I directed you to our counter-missionary resource page. I am sure you did not have the time to read all of those article, perhaps you did not read any of them. But, specifically to the point you are trying to make here, and ProfBenTziyyon already pointed out to you that there is no "if", i.e., that it is a fact, I direct you to the article Messiah Wanted!, in which I prove it using both the Hebrew Bible and the Greek Testament. UriYosef
Our raison d'être:
WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!! |
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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UriYosef wrote:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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catholic |
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these are all good comments but i am not sure i should respond to them here in this forum i think i should make a different forum just dedicated to this
because would this not break the commandment of bearing false witness.
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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catholic wrote:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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catholic |
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well just looked at my new forum and found out it was edited so i apologize if i broke any rule or i pushed it to far. i guess we will have to agree that we
disagree i will due what is done in judaism to recognize sin and depart form it what ever it might be. note: if this is not done in judaism i apologize because
i think it is but i may be wrong considering i am not a jew or jewish scholar. once again my apologies for pushing it to much.
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catholic |
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also looking back at this discussion i think i might have broke the rule to Proselytize. i realize my errors and hope for forgiveness from you and G-d, i wrote
G-d this way not because i am a jew or think i am a jew but for respect.
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Sharbano |
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catholic: This is not to be offensive but there have been many, and I do mean Many, that have come to Jewish sites with a firm belief that they present
conclusive evidence of the same. What you bring to the table is nothing new. It's been the same arguments for centuries. A person can ask the valid
question, Why is it that the only language that is taught is either Latin or Greek, but Never the "Original" language of the text, Lashon Kodesh,
Hebrew. Wouldn't it be the most valuable to know the language that the text is written in. People couldn't understand the language of the pyramids
until the discovery of the Rosetta Stone. It is no different when it comes to Tanach. Without the understanding of the language, how does a person truly
understand what is written. It is common knowledge that No translation does justice. Even the Greeks admitted this.
One thing I would say, and I think there are many who agree, that given what the Xtian text says and teaches, it is highly unlikely that the authors of that text were even Jewish. We can assume this from what is taught from those texts concerning the teachings of Judaism. There are simply too many instances where the author gives a distorted understanding of Judaism. There are examples where it's not merely distorted but a flat lie. If these authors were Jewish they would certainly have known better. Given that time period we do know that many were acquainted with aspects of Judiasm. A person that is giving a teaching who is on the outside could very well come up with a distorted view of many principles. This is what seems to be the case with the Xtian authors, especially Paul. Many have concluded, from an analysis of the text, that Paul was actually a convert, who only coverted in order to marry a Jewish woman. When that didn't work out he became rather antagonistic against women in general. It is also suspicious that Paul came from Tarsus which was dominated by the worship of Mithra, and the simlilarities of Mithra and Xtianity is staggering. There are just too many questionable items when it comes to the Xtian text for anyone to give it merit. I did read somewhere, and I haven't been able to find it again, that Paul WAS actually a Rabbi and infiltrated Xtianity in order to discredit it by creating a belief that was so antithetical to Judaism that NO Jew would ever follow it. When a person looks at his writings a person can certainly see the possibility of it. The only name that comes to mind is possibly Shimon but I'm in no way certain of that. In any event, it would be the most profitable to undertake a study of the entire Tanach. What the Xtian authors have done is take only a snippet and use that as so-called proof. The difficulty lies in the fact that not only is just a snippet used but in every instance the text is "extrapolated" in order to come up with a meaning that fits the narrative. There is certain danger when a religion is based solely on extrapolation and not on the clarity of the text. If there were even a Single instance of clarity it woiuld be a starting point, but in Every, every case it is solely extrapolation. When G-d spoke in Torah, there is no need for extrapolation, which brings to mind another point. Isn't it interesting, and "odd", that there isn't a single instance, not one, where G-d is speaking to these writers. In Torah, the Prophets, and throughout, we constantly read that G-d says this, G-d says that. Has anyone identified HOW MANY times in Tanach that it is G-D! that is speaking, or a person says G-d told him thus. When we analyze the Xtian text there isn't one time that G-d tells a writer what to write or say. It is their Own words. Doesn't the Jewish Scriptures teach about following the teachings of men. Some things to consider.
Last Edited By: Sharbano
10/14/09 23:26:27.
Edited 1 times.
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catholic |
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I did take it offensive but I will continue the response anyway. i did not finish any of my so called "proofs" all i said was check Zechariah 4 and
then i was refereed to many good links which i deem very academic. furthermore you claim that Mithra has a lot of similarities with xianity and that is because
mithra was copied off early xianity. you seem to be referring to the argument to the copy cat argument. which has been proven false by many apologetics.
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