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catholic

ProfBenTziyyon

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Posts: 9

(10/15/09 16:43:46)

Is that post not in direct violation of the 10th rule of knowing your orchard? Let me re post just to try to prove it as a violation. 10. Personal attacks on other posters (including moderators) is not allowed (see rule #1). Such posts will be edited or deleted and if continued may result in the banning of the poster. I do not mean to offend you and if this post does like the way you offend catholics "christians (especially catholics) aren't interested in "proof" unless it proves what they WANT it to prove". Then I am sorry and my deepest apologies.

catholic

reply

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Posts: 10

(10/15/09 17:05:07)

Upon further inspection you seem to have broken to of this forums rules first 10. Personal attacks on other posters and 16. Treat others with respect. Posts that are deemed otherwise will be edited if possible or removed without explanation. I do realize I myself have broken this forums rules, in which I promptly issued and apology. I went to the dictionary and looked for the word respect and found this as the def:due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of. Then I looked up the word regard and found this: attention to or concern for something. so looking at rule 16 it can be put in laymen terms of treat others with concern of feelings for my case. and my feelings were hurt with these specific words (especially catholics) aren't interested in proof unless it proves what they WANT it to prove − consequently, you're banging your head on the wall and completely wasting your time and effort! this seems to be saying or trying to say catholics in specific are arrogant which means,having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities. or it is hopeless to try and explain to someone who is stupid in specific catholics. which is where rule ten comes in as in no personal attacks. if i may i would like an apology for violation of ten and sixteen as i have respected rule ten and sixteen, unless shown otherwise, and if it is proven once again my deep apologies. i also respected rule 14 were it talks about anti Semitic posts as it would be the equivalent of rule ten and sixteen. although my beliefs about the afterlife can be pointed as a violation of rules ten and sixteen i never expressed theses beliefs in the entire forum, unless proven otherwise in which case my apologies.

Sharbano

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Posts: 3

(10/15/09 18:33:51)

catholic wrote:
furthermore you claim that Mithra has a lot of similarities with xianity and that is because mithra was copied off early xianity. .

How can this be the case when Mithra pre-dates Xtianity. Plutarch wrote about Mithra, dating it to the 1st Century BCE. It continued for several centuries later and with the rise of Xtianity, Mithra finally died out. This is no doubt the result of the followers of other religions who found a similar home in Xtianity.

Sophiee1

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Posts: 12792

(10/15/09 20:23:52)

Moderator

Mithra-ism PRE-DATES Chrstianity by about 1000 years, so how, pray tell, did they copy from the Chrstians? Justin Martyr ("the" famous "martyr") condemed the Mith-raites for "copying" Xianity even though the Mith-raites PRE-DATED Xianity. [First Apology, Chap 66]:

Quote:
"For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jsus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mith-ras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn."

Did you know the Vatican is built over a church to Mith-ra?

While it may be true that many apologetics have tried to prove the similarities to various pagan religions and Chrstianity don't exist they haven't done a terribly good job of it. One simply looks at archeology for proof of their sad efforts.

Check out "Pagan Chrsts" which includes quotes from early church leaders. It is slightly "camp", but neverless interesting.

Dion-ysius is even closer to the Xian idea of Jsus. We have ancient images of him carrying lambs (the lamb of "god") and dying on a cross!

The image of J-sus as the paschal lamb is found in John.

John 19:31 says that J-sus died as the lambs were slaughtered. He also makes reference to J-sus bones not being broken as a sign (which it wasn't) in John 19:33. He is trying to make a mitzvot of the paschal lamb not having any broken bones into a messianic prophecy.

Mit-hras was portrayed with lambs and was called "the lamb of god." Aries was the ram god. The concept is pagan that was overlayed into Xianity by trying to use the paschal lamb to add Jewishness to it.

Here is a picture of Diony-sius carrying a lamb.

The god Osir-is depicted as a ram (lamb)

Diony-sius / Bach-us / Osi-ris on a cross:

Your "proofs" reagarding Zechariah 4 have already been shown to be incorrect, and yet here you bring it up again. There is no mention of a messiah, let alone Jsus. So where is your proof? It is simply your opinion based on a total lack of supporting evidence.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Sophiee1

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Posts: 12793

(10/15/09 20:35:01)

Moderator

catholic wrote:
Is that post not in direct violation of the 10th rule of knowing your orchard? Let me re post just to try to prove it as a violation. 10. Personal attacks on other posters (including moderators) is not allowed (see rule #1). Such posts will be edited or deleted and if continued may result in the banning of the poster. I do not mean to offend you and if this post does like the way you offend catholics "christians (especially catholics) aren't interested in "proof" unless it proves what they WANT it to prove". Then I am sorry and my deepest apologies.

The Professor made a generalization (rather than a personal insult). I disagree with generalizations since some Chrstians indeed aren't interested in being shown the truth and we've had many more of them come here than those who are really interested in learning. Yet some have indeed been interested in learning, whether they agree with us in the end or not.

I would suggest that the Professor consider editing his post to say "many chrstians" or "in my experience." I wouldn't like anyone to say "Jews are all money hungr," "Jews run all the banks in the world," etc.

For the record I've known many good Catholics. Some are close minded and don't accept any proof as much evidence is given (those are the ones the Professor referenced). On this forum we get our share of this type, come here to preach. Perhaps we get a bit tired of it after awhile. Not excusing it, but trying to explain it. I am the one who released the Professor's post and possibly should have edited it. If there apologies to be made, it is my responsibility since this is a moderated forum. Hopefully you'll accept my apology, and hopefully you'll be open to what we explain (whether or not you choose to believe it).

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

catholic

reply

[-]

Posts: 11

(10/15/09 20:54:47)

what connections do you want me to explain in particular. by the way jews are no more different that the Greeks asserted that the Jews were Indians whom the Syrians called Judea, the Sanskrit synonym of which is Yadava or Yaudheya, and the Indians called them Kalanis, meaning orthodox followers of the scriptures. or how about the similarities of Zoroastrianism and judaism.

Sophiee1

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Posts: 12794

(10/15/09 21:10:53)

Moderator

You are using a rather typical missionary tactic. You cannot respond to the information presented so you now are trying to attack Judaism. This is more a problem for you than for Jews since Chrstianity states it is built atop of Judaism. If you disprove Judaism you disprove your own religion.

Your information is wrong. Judaism is very dissimilar to Zor-oastriasm which is a dualistic (good god / bad god) faith. This is much more in common with Chrstianity which has the good god (Jsus) and the bad demi-god (Satan). Judaism is pure monotheism.

Likewise it doesn't matter what the Greeks thought about Jews being Indians or others think as far as Jewish history. Unlike Chrstianity Judaism can prove its history -- we can do so through archeology, we can do so through DNA (dating the priests back to Aaron, Moses' brother), and we can do so through an unbroken chain of transmission which has been recorded from father to son from Mount Sinai. Then we have national revelation where 3 million Jews heard G-d speak.

Jews don't suffer from the total lack of proof that does Chrstianity.

Now, catholic, are you here to argue (as your last post seems to indicate)? Or are you here to ask questions and learn as you initially stated? I'll repeat again that you needn't agree with us, and you needn't stay on the forum either (no one is holding you hostage). But this is not a place for you to preach. You have obviously read the forum rules for which I thank you. If you do have questions lets discuss them.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Sophiee1

[-]

Posts: 12795

(10/16/09 06:17:22)

Moderator

catholic has been unable to bring any proofs of Jsus' existence (because there are none) he has now tried to shift the topic to "Well, you don't have any proof that Judaism is real EITHER."

I call this the "but Bobby's mommy let HIM jump off the roof" excuse. It doesn't fly in the best of times because it is deflection, plain and simple.

But while we're waiting for catholic to supply proof of Jsus (and we'll wait forever) here is a little interim entertainment about just SOME of the proofs of Judaism. Enjoy.

Biblical Archeology: Bringing the Bible to Life
by Rabbi Leibel Reznick

Independent sources confirm many of the major and minor characters of the Bible.

The Seal of Baruch ben Neriah

How lonely sits the city that was once full of people! She has become like a widow! She, that was great among the nations and a princess among the provinces, has become a tributary. Lamentations 1:1

Those melancholy words of the prophet Jeremiah were composed from the dismal confines of a dungeon cell. The prophet of God dictated the words of doom while his protege, the scribe Baruch ben Neriah, carefully recorded them on a scroll. Baruch read the words of Lamentations before the king of Judah, Jehoakim. The thought of losing his kingdom so angered the king that he cut the scroll into pieces and threw the scraps into a fire as though that would alter the divine decree.

Twenty-four hundred years later, a small lump of clay was discovered in Jerusalem bearing the seal of Baruch ben Neriah. The disciple of Jeremiah was suddenly and tangibly brought to life. One's imagination began to run wild. Could this be the seal that was used to authenticate the original scroll of Lamentations? There is one thing the imagination does not have to conjure. When a document was to be authenticated and rendered tamper-proof, the document was rolled up and bound by a length of cord. The knot was encased in a small lump of clay, called a bulla, which was held steady with one hand while the other hand embossed the seal onto the clay. When the bulla dried, the document was ready for delivery. It was not unusual for the fingerprints of the person holding the clay and seal to be impressed onto the sides of the bulla.

Sure enough! A thumbprint can be seen on the upper ridge of Baruch's bulla, most likely the print of Baruch himself. Once again the imagination begins to roam. Could there be any DNA residue of Baruch on the hardened clay?

Outside Verification

A large number of modern-day historians claim that there is no evidence that the events in the Biblical accounts from Moses, Joshua, David, through Jeremiah, and Baruch, and their successors actually happened. They claim that these leaders never existed, or that, at best, they were insignificant tribal chieftains who were later made into national heroes by writers who lived long after the alleged events. According to those historians, the events mentioned in the Bible were the products of the composer's imagination. The heroes and villains of the Biblical story were crafted for a people who desperately needed heroes and villains.

Exactly who these crafty composers were, they do not say. Another point they do not address is how was it possible for these composers to one day suddenly present to the masses their supposed history, one of which they were previously totally unaware, is beyond explanation. The creditability of this history had to have been based on the reputation of the composer or composers, composers about whom we know nothing.

However, modern-day anti-Biblicists would rather embrace the idea that the story of Joshua, David, Solomon and their successors where mythical tales concocted by obscure writers rather than yield to the possibility that the stories are true.

It was not that long ago that there was no independent outside verification for hardly any of the Biblical characters. Nowadays, almost on a yearly basis, some independent source confirms the existence of one of the Biblical characters. Below is an impressive list of 61 Biblical persons, some are kings, some are prophets, some are heroes while others are enemies. They are central characters as well as minor players whose reality can be verified by archaeological and historical evidence.

Acceptable evidence is based on three factors:

1) The name of the individual has been found in some extra-Biblical record or on some piece of archaeological evidence, such as a bulla or seal.

2) The name must in some way be connected to the person named in the Biblical story. For example, the name Ahab being found on a seal would mean very little. However, if the seal read Ahab, King of Israel, that would mean a great deal.

3) The chronological context of the name found must match the chronology of the Biblical story. If the above "Ahab, King of Israel" seal was found in an archaeological stratum dating to the 12th century BCE, that would create a major problem. The Biblical Ahab lived many centuries later.

When all three factors have been met, according to the interpretation of recognized scholars, historians, and archaeologists, only then is the evidence conclusive.

To my mind, it is not the verification of the major personalities that is so impressive but rather the verification of the more obscure Biblical characters is the more astonishing. It could be argued that the Biblical stories were crafted around real kings and actual prophets who had lived and ruled in some bygone era. The names of these kings and prophets may have been retained in the conscious memory of the Biblical composers. They merely had to invent the stories, many of which were not at all complimentary to the audience to which they sought to appeal- something unheard of in the ancient world but has gained great popularity in our times. The Biblical composers would have found it necessary to add in a whole bevy of minor characters to make the story flow. These insignificant folks were totally fabricated by the composers. So goes the theory.

When outside confirmation of the minor characters surfaces, it lends great strength to those who firmly believe in the veracity and accuracy of the Biblical narrative.

The List

(*minor Biblical character)
Ahab (I Kings 16-22; II Kings 1,3-10; II Chronicles 19.21.22, etc) infamous king of Israel.
Mentioned in the Assyrian Annalistic Reports, 2,000 chariots, 10,000 soldiers of Ahab the Israelite, defeated by Shalmaneser¹, alluded to on the Mesha Stele. ²

Ahaz (II Kings 15-18,20,23; Isaiah 1,7,14,38; Hoshea 1; Micha 1; I Chronicles 3,8, etc.)
King of Judah
Mentioned in the cuneiform Annals of Tiglath-pileser III. ³ Several seals and bullae bearing the name of the king Ahaz. ⁴

Ahikam son of Shaphan (II Kings 22,25; Jeremiah 26,29,36, 39-41,43; II Chronicles 34) contemporary of Jeremiah
Bullae bearing the name Ahikam son of Shaphan. ⁵

Ashurbanipal/Asnappar (Ezra 4) king of Assyria. 4:10. Asnappar Identified in Mentioned in numerous contemporary inscriptions. ⁶

*Azaliah son of Meshullam (II Kings 22; II Chronicles 34) "And it came to pass in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, that the king sent Shaphan the son of Azaliah, the son of Meshullam, the scribe, to the house of the Lord, saying..." (II Kings 22:3)
Bullae bearing the name of Azaliah son of Meshullum found in Jerusalem. ⁷

Azariah/Uzziah (II Kings 14,15) king of Judah.
Aramaic inscription on a stone plaque, found on the Mt. of Olives in Jerusalem, reads "Here were brought the bones of Uzziah, King of Judah." ⁸ Possibly the King Azariau of Yaudi mentioned in the Annals of Tiglath-pileser III. ⁹

Azariah son of Hilkiah (Ezra 7; I Chronicles 5) grandfather of Ezra, high priest.
A bulla found in Jerusalem bears the name Azariah son of Hilkiah. ¹⁰

*Baalis (Jeremiah 40) king of Ammon.
Attested to by two seals found in Jordan, the Milqom Seal and the Baalisha Seal which reads Baalisha (Baalis) king of the sons of Ammon. ¹¹

*Baruch ben Neriah (Jeremiah 32,36,43,45) a scribe, a disciple of the prophet Jeremiah.
Several bullae bearing the name Baruch ben Neriah have been found in the archaeological City of David. One bulla bears the inscription "Baruch ben Neriah the Scribe." The stratum in which the seals were found is contemporaneous with Jeremiah. ¹²

Belshazzar (Daniel 5,7,8) king of Babylon.
Mentioned in numerous contemporary inscriptions. ¹³

Ben-hadad Dynasty (I Kings 15, 20; II Kings 6,8,13; Jeremiah 49, etc.) king of Aram
Melqart Stele mentions king of Aram, Bir-hadad. Bir corressopnds to the Hebrew Ben. Zakkur Stele attests to an Aramean royal name of Ben-hadad. ¹⁴

Ben-hadad III (II Kings 13) king of Aram, son of Hazael.
Ben-hadad son of Hazael mentioned in Zakkur Stele. ¹⁵

David (Davidic Dynasty) (Mentioned more than 1,000 times in the books of the Prophets.)
Several references in extra-Biblical sources to the Davidic dynasty have been found in recent years. ¹⁶

*Elishama (Jeremiah 36,41) scribe and servant to king Jehoiakim. A bulla dating from that time period bears the stamp, "Elishama, servant of the king." ¹⁷

Esarhaddon (II Kings 19, Isaiah 37, Ezra 4) Assyrian king , son of Nebucadnezer.
Attested to in many cuneiform chronicles. Bronze plague in Louvre depicts Esarhaddon and his mother Nagia. ¹⁸

*Ethbaal (I Kings 16) king of Sidon.
Attested by Menander of Ephesus, summarized in Josephus' Contra Apion. ¹⁹

Gedalyahu ben Pashur (Jeremiah 38:1) antagonist of Jeremiah Attested by bulla found in Jerusalem by Prof. E. Mazar. ²⁰

*Gemariahu the son of Shaphan (Jeremiah 29,36) servant of king Jehoiakim.
Bulla found with the name Gemariahu the son of Shaphan. ²¹

Hazael (I Kings 19; II Kings 8,9,10,12,13) king of Aram, enemy of Israel.
Attested by ivory fragments found in Arslan Tash²² and Nimrud. Mentioned several times in Zakkur Stele. ²³

Hezekiah (II Kings 16,18-21; Isaiah 1,36-39; Jeremiah 15,26; Hoshea 1; Micha 1; etc)
Renown king of Judah. Hezekiah was unsuccessfully besieged in Jerusalem by Sennecherib.
Mentioned several times in Annals of Sennacherib. The Annals refer to the siege of Jerusalem. ²⁴ A number of seals and bullae bear the king's name. ²⁵

Hezion (II Kings 15) king of Aram.
Attested to in the Melqart Stele. ²⁶

*Hilkiah (II Kings 22,23; Jeremiah 1,29; Ezra 7; Nechemiah 11,12; II Chronicles 34,35) a high priest, contemporary of Jeremiah.
A signet ring bears the name of Hilkiah the priest. Dated to the era of Jeremiah. ²⁷

Hiram (II Samuel 5; I Kings 5,7.9.10) king of Tyre, contemporary of Solomon.
Attested by Menander of Ephesus, summarized in Josephus' Contra Apion. ²⁸

*Hopra (Jeremiah 44) king of Egypt.
Identified with 'Apries, pharaoh of 26th Dynasty. ²⁹

Hoshea (II Kings 15,17,18) last king of Israel.
Attested to twice in the Annals of Tiglath-pileser III. "They overthrew their king Pekah and I (Tiglath-pileser) placed Hoshea as king over them." ³⁰ Name found on a seal that reads, "Abdi, servant of Hoshea." ³¹

Jehoash (II Kings 12-14) Israelite king.
Mentioned in the Annals of Adad-nirari of Assyria and on the Tel Rimah Stele. ³²

*Jehoiachin (II Kings 24,25; Jeremiah 52; II Chronicles 36). One of the last kings of Judah.
Mentioned in the Ration Tables of Babylon. ³³

Jehoram II (I Kings 22, II Kings 1,3,6,9,12; II Chronicles 17,21,22) king of Israel, son of Ahab.
Alluded to on Tel Dan Stele. ³⁴

Jotham (II Kings 15,16; Isaiah 1,7; Hoshea 1; Micha 1; II Chronicles 26,27) King of Judah.
This king is attested to by a seal recently uncovered that reads, "Belonging to Ahaz (son of) Jotham, King of Judah." ³⁵

Jehu (I Kings 16,19; II Kings 9,10,12,13-15; Hoshea 1, I Chronicles 2,4, 12, etc)
Mentioned and depicted on the Black Obelisk. ³⁶

*Jehucal the son of Shelemiah (Jeremiah 37) official in the court of Zedekiah.
A bulla bearing the name "Jehucal the son of Shelemiah" was discovered in the archaeological city of David in Jerusalem together with other bullae dating to the period of Zedekiah. ³⁷

*Jerahme'el, son of king Jehoiakim (Jeremiah 36)
Bulla found with the imprint, "Jerahme'el, the king's son." ³⁸

Jeroboam II (II Kings 9,10,13-15,17,23; Hoshea 1; Amos 7; II Chronicles 9-13) King of Israel.
Seal of Jasper found at Megiddo depicting a roaring lion and bears the inscription "to Shema, servant of Jeroboam." ³⁹

Jezebel (I Kings 16,18,21; II Kings 9) daughter of Ethbaal king of Sidon (Phoenicia), wife of king Ahab of Israel.
Name found on Phoenician royal seal dated to the era of Ahab. ⁴⁰

Menachem (II Kings 15) Israelite king.
Mentioned twice in the annals of Tiglath-pileser III as Menachem of Samariah (the capital of Israel). ⁴¹

Manasseh (II Kings 20,21,23,24; Jeremiah 9,15; II Chronicles 33,34) infamous king of Judah, son of Hezekiah.
Attested to in the annals of Esarhaddon and the annals of Assurbanipal. ⁴² Name very possibly appears on a royal seal, which reads Manasseh son of the king (referring to Hezekiah). ⁴³

Merodach-baladan II (II Kings 20; Isaiah 39) king of Babylonia, on friendly terms with Hezekiah king of Judah.
Mentioned in the cuneiform texts of Tiglath-pileser III, Sargon II, and Sennacherib. ⁴⁴

*Mesha (II Kings 3) king of Moab contemporary with Omri dynasty of Israel, waged war with Israel.
Attested to in Mesha Stele, Mesha waged war with an Omri dynasty king. ⁴⁵

Nebuchadnezzar II (II Kings 24,25; Jeremiah 27,282934,39; Daniel 1.2.3,4,5, etc) king of Babylon, captures Judah and exiles the Israelites. Well attested to. ⁴⁶

*Sarsekim (Jeremiah 39:3) official of Nebuchadnezzar II, name recently deciphered on cuneiform tablet by Michael Jursa of the University of Vienna. ⁴⁷

Necho II (II Kings 23; Jeremiah 46, II Chronicles 35,36) Egyptian pharaoh during the final years of the Davidic monarchy in Judah.
Well known pharaoh of the 26th Dynasty.

Omri (I Kings 16, II Kings 8, Micha 6, I Chronicles 7,9, 27; II Chronicles 22)King of Israel, founder of Omride Dynasty
Name mentioned on Mesha Stele, dynasty (House of Omri) referred to in several Assyrian cuneiform texts. ⁴⁸

Pekah (II Kings 15,16; Isaiah 7; II Chronicles 28) next to the last king of Israel.
Attested twice in the Annals of Tiglath-pileser III. "They overthrew their king Pekah and I (Tiglath-pileser) placed Hoshea as king over them." ⁴⁹

Rezin (II Kings 15,16; Isaiah 7,8,9, Ezra 2; Nechemia 7) Last Aramean king of Damascus, fought with Pekah king of Israel.
Attested in the Annals of Tiglath-pileser III. ⁵⁰

*Samgarnebo (Jeremiah 39) high official serving in the court of Nebucadnezzar.
A cuneiform tablet discovered in 1920 near Bagdad states that Samgarnebo was a chief official in the court of Nebucadnezzar. ⁵¹

Sargon II (Isaiah 20) king of Assyria.
Attested to in countless cuneiform chronicles. ⁵²

Sennacherib (II Kings 18,19; Isaiah 35,37; II Chronicles 32) king of Assyria, invades Israel captures Lachish, besieges Jerusalem. Sennacherib's own chronicles and palace engravings attest to the invasion of Israel, the capture of Lachish and the siege of Jerusalem. ⁵³

*Seraiah the son of Neriah, (Jeremiah 51) brother of Baruch ben Neriah.
Bulla bearing the name Seraiah ben Neriah found. ⁵⁴

Shallum (II Kings 15) King of Israel.
Very possibly this king is the "Shallum" whose name is found on a cylindrical seal. ⁵⁵

Shalmaneser V (II Kings 17,18) conquers Israel, exiles ten tribes. Attested to in the Babylonian Chronicles and in the Babylonian King List. ⁵⁶

*Shaphan (II Kings 22,25; Jeremiah 26,29, 36,40,41,43; II Chronicles 34) contemporary of Jeremiah.
Name found on a number of bullae dated to the period of Jeremiah. ⁵⁷

*Shebna (II Kings 18,19; Isaiah 22,36,37) Servant (minister) of king Azariah. Called the "one over the house," referring to his position as the one in charge of the affairs of the house of the king.
Engraving above a burial cave bears his name and the phrase, "The one over the house." ⁵⁸ A seal also bears the engraving, "Shebna, servant of the king."

Shishak (I Kings 11,14; II Chronicles 12) king of Egypt, invaded Canaan during reign of Rehoboam king of Judah.
Invasion of Canaan by Egyptian king Shishak (Shoshenq I) attested to in Megiddo Stele. ⁵⁹

So (II Kings 17) king of Egypt, contemporary with Shalmaneser V of Babylon and Hoshea, last king of Israel.
Most probably to be identified with Osorkon, king of Egypt, contemporaneously with Shalmaneser V of Babylon. ⁶⁰

*Sanballat the Horonite (Nechemia 2-4,6,13) governor in Judah, contemporary of Nechemia.
Sanballat the Horonite is mentioned several times in the Elephantine Papyrus which chronicles the time period of Nechemia. ⁶¹

Tabrimon (II Kings 15) king of Aram
Mentioned in the Melqart Stele. ⁶²

Tiglath-pileser III, also called Pul (II Kings 15,16; Isaiah 66; I Chronicles 5)
Attested to in countless cuneiform chronicles. ⁶³

*Tirhakah (II Kings 19; Isaiah 37) Egyptian king, contemporary of Hezekiah king of Judah.
Well known 25th Dynasty Egyptian pharaoh.

*Tobiah the Ammonite (Nehemiah 2-4,6,7,13) antagonist of Ezra and Nehemiah.
Tobiah the Ammonite is mentioned several times in the Elephantine Papyrus which chronicles the time period of Ezra and Nechemia. Stanley A. Cook, The Significance of the Elephantine Papyri for the History of Hebrew Religion The American Journal of Theology, Vol. 19, No. 3 (Jul., 1915), pp. 346-382⁶⁴

Zedekiah (II Kings 24,25; Jeremiah 1,21,24,27-29, 32,34,36-39,44.49.51.52 Nechemiah 10, I Chronicles 3, II Chronicles 36) last king of Judah, installed by Nebucadnesser.
Referred to in the Babylonian Chronicles of Nebucadnesser, and mentions that Nebucadnesser installed the Judean king. ⁶⁵

Zedekiah the son of Hananiah (Jeremiah 36) official in the court of king Jehoiakim of Judah.
Bulla found in archaeological city of David bearing the name Zedekiah the son of Hananiah. The strata was contemporary with Jehoiakim. ⁶⁶

See Footnotes

Author Biography:
Rabbi Leibel Reznick has been a senior lecturer in Talmudic studies in Rockland County, New York for the past 25 years. He has authored three books (The Holy Temple Revisited, A Time to Weep, and The Mystery of Bar Kokhba) and over 100 magazine and newspaper articles on Jewish History, archaeology, and religious and social issues.

This article can also be read at: http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/Biblical_Archeology_Bringing_the_B.asp

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סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Sophiee1

[-]

Posts: 12796

(10/16/09 06:33:07)

Moderator

For more information on archeology and Judaism read the thread: Archeology is proving the truth of Torah

Every day in Israel more archeological evidence is discovered that proves the truth of our history.

New Dead Sea Scroll Fragments
There is only one place on earth where an unending stream of evidence substantiating the Bible is discovered year after year. Granted, it's been 40 years since the major discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls thrilled biblical archaeologists and others who love the Word of God. more»

Seal of the City of David
"Now Shephatiah the son of Mattan, Gedaliah the son of Pashhur, Jucal the son of Shelemiah, and Pashhur the son of Malchiah heard the words that Jeremiah had spoken to all the people, saying, more»

Apart from archeological evidence we have DNA research proves what Jewish genealogical records have stated: Jews, while having some smattering of almost every population thanks to converts and rapes, are primarily a semitic, Middle Eastern people.

"The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East." The American Journal of Human Genetics 69:5 (November 2001): 1095-1112:

"A sample of 526 Y chromosomes representing six Middle Eastern populations (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Kurdish Jews from Israel; Muslim Kurds; Muslim Arabs from Israel and the Palestinian Authority Area; and Bedouin from the Negev) was analyzed for 13 binary polymorphisms and six microsatellite loci. The investigation of the genetic relationship among three Jewish communities revealed that Kurdish and Sephardic Jews were indistinguishable from one another. . .

The priests have a common ancestor (Aaron, Moses' brother). Link

Jewish tradition, based on the Torah, is that all Kohanim are direct descendants of Aharon, the original Kohen. The line of the Kohanim is patrilineal: it has been passed from father to son without interruption from Aharon, for 3,300 years, or more than 100 generations. . .

A study was undertaken to test the hypothesis. If there were a common ancestor, the Kohanim should have common genetic markers at a higher frequency than the general Jewish population. (DNA). . .

n the first study, as reported in the prestigious British science journal, Nature (January 2, 1997), 188 Jewish males were asked to contribute some cheek cells from which their DNA was extracted for study. Participants from Israel, England and North America were asked to identify whether they were a Kohen, Levi or Israelite, and to identify their family background.
The results of the analysis of the Y chromosome markers of the Kohanim and non-Kohanim were indeed significant. A particular marker, (YAP-) was detected in 98.5 percent of the Kohanim, and in a significantly lower percentage on non-Kohanim.

Hope you enjoyed this interlude while we await a response from catholic.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

catholic

reply

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Posts: 12

(10/16/09 06:35:23)

okay i accept the apology i must have taken it to the extreme. i did not know the entire situation.

catholic

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Posts: 13

(10/16/09 06:50:50)

actually yes they do as well, the exodus has been shown to only have a few thousand people at best. furthermore there are even more troubles for the exodus. there is no mention of jews as slaves in Egypt. and the Un broken chain of tradition, we know from later biblical books that the returning exiles knew nothing about dwelling in success on Succot and they also knew nothing about matrilineal descent or any ban on intermarriage. also there has still been debate on were the mountain of Mount Sinai is. and there is the account of josepuhs

Sophiee1

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Posts: 12797

(10/16/09 10:17:15)

Moderator

catholic wrote:
okay i accept the apology i must have taken it to the extreme. i did not know the entire situation.

Thank you.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Sophiee1

[-]

Posts: 12798

(10/16/09 10:30:10)

Moderator

catholic wrote:
actually yes they do as well, the exodus has been shown to only have a few thousand people at best. furthermore there are even more troubles for the exodus. there is no mention of jews as slaves in Egypt. and the Un broken chain of tradition, we know from later biblical books that the returning exiles knew nothing about dwelling in success on Succot and they also knew nothing about matrilineal descent or any ban on intermarriage. also there has still been debate on were the mountain of Mount Sinai is. and there is the account of josepuhs

catholic, might I remind you to phrase things in the form of a question? Your above statement is attempting to "teach" Judaism (rule violation) and it is completely inaccurate. You are also continue to try to change the subject from your inability to prove that Jsus existed to questioning Jewish history. These are the last responses I'm going to give you in this thread regarding Jewish history until such time as you give us the promised PROOF of Jsus' existence.

I take it you didn't read my post about archeology and DNA? Based on your response which came after that post you didn't read it. There is DNA proof that the Jewish priests date back to the Exodus -- specifically to one ancestor, Aaron -- the brother of Moses.

But you are also discarding the proofs of l'dor v'dor (generation to generation) of Jews who have "taught it dilligently" to their children. The number is 3 million, not a few thousand. There is the proof of father to son transmission as supported by DNA and there is archeological evidence. In your statement you didn't support your argument (which should have been a question), but let's continue your education.

I'll start with the Exodus, since you brought it up and continue in the next post or two. Have you ever heard of the Ipuwer papyrus?

It is an Egyptian papyri that dates to the 13th century BCE. EGYPTIAN. Compare it to the Torah.

From OHR's website

Ipuwer papyrus

Quote:
2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
2:10 The river is blood.

2:10 Men shrink from tasting - human beings, and thirst after water

3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin.

Exodus

Quote:
7:20 all the waters of the river were turned to blood.

7:21 ...there was blood thoughout all the land of Egypt and the river stank.

7:24 And all the Egyptians dug around the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.

Ipuwer papyrus

Quote:
2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.

10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps... The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong [by right] wheat and barley, geese and fish

6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.

5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which was yesterday seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax.

Exodus

Quote:
9:23-24 ...and the fire ran along the ground... there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous.

9:25 ...and the hail smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the field.

9:31-32 ...and the flax and the barley was smitten; for the barley was in season, and flax was ripe.

But the wheat and the rye were not smitten; for they were not grown up.

10:15 ...there remained no green things in the trees, or in the herbs of the fields, through all the land of Egypt.

Ipuwer papyrus

Quote:
5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan...

9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together.

Exodus

Quote:
9:3 ...the hand of HaShem is upon thy cattle which is in the field... and there shall be a very grievous sickness.

9:19 ...gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field...

9:21 And he that did not fear the word of HaShem left his servants and cattle in the field.

Ipuwer papyrus

Quote:
9:11 The land is without light

Exodus

Quote:
10:22 And there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt.

Ipuwer papyrus

Quote:
4:3 (5:6) Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls.

6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets.

6:3 The prison is ruined.

2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere.

3:14 It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations

Exodus

Quote:
12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight HaShem smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive that was in the prison.

12:30 ...there was not a house where there was not one dead.

12:30 ...there was a great cry in Egypt.

Ipuwer papyrus

Quote:
7:1 Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land.

Exodus

Quote:
13:21 ... by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.

Ipuwer papyrus

Quote:
3:2 Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze... are fastened on the neck of female slaves.

Exodus

Quote:
12:35-36 ...and they requested from the Egyptians, silver and gold articles and clothing. And G-d made the Egyptians favour them and they granted their request. [The Israelites] thus drained Egypt of its wealth.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Sophiee1

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Posts: 12799

(10/16/09 10:33:36)

Moderator

catholic wrote:

there is the account of josepuhs

Josephus (for those who are unfamiliar with him) was a Jew who lived 2000 years ago. He was captured in the fall of Judah and became a Roman citizen and historian. He recounts the story of the Exodus from an Egyptian historian's perspective named Manetho.

Manetho was an Egyptian historian and priest ) who lived during the Ptolemaic era, circa 3rd century BCE.

In Against Apion, Josephus tells the reader that Egyptian historian Manetho recorded two exodus events. The first of these is a large exodus of some 480,000 Hyksos 'shepherds' who left Egypt for Israel. Josephus related the Hyksos to the Hebrews (Jews and Joseph). From Against Apion:

Quote:
Manetho, in the second book of his Egyptian History, writes concerning us in the following manner. I will set down his very words, as if I were to bring the very man himself into a court for a witness: "There was a king of ours whose name was Timaus. Under him it came to pass, I know not how, that G-d was averse to us, and there came, after a surprising manner, men of ignoble birth out of the eastern parts, and had boldness enough to make an expedition into our country, and with ease subdued it by force, yet without our hazarding a battle with them. So when they had gotten those that governed us under their power, they afterwards burnt down our cities, and demolished the temples of the gods, and used all the inhabitants after a most barbarous manner; nay, some they slew, and led their children and their wives into slavery. At length they made one of themselves king, whose name was Salatis; he also lived at Memphis, and made both the upper and lower regions pay tribute, and left garrisons in places that were the most proper for them. He chiefly aimed to secure the eastern parts, as fore-seeing that the Assyrians, who had then the greatest power, would be desirous of that kingdom, and invade them; and as he found in the Saite Nomos, [Sethroite,] a city very proper for this purpose, and which lay upon the Bubastic channel, but with regard to a certain theologic notion was called Avaris, this he rebuilt, and made very strong by the walls he built about it, and by a most numerous garrison of two hundred and forty thousand armed men whom he put into it to keep it. Thither Salatis came in summer time, partly to gather his corn, and pay his soldiers their wages, and partly to exercise his armed men, and thereby to terrify foreigners. When this man had reigned thirteen years, after him reigned another, whose name was Beon, for forty-four years; after him reigned another, called Apachnas, thirty-six years and seven months; after him Apophis reigned sixty-one years, and then Janins fifty years and one month; after all these reigned Assis forty-nine years and two months. And these six were the first rulers among them, who were all along making war with the Egyptians, and were very desirous gradually to destroy them to the very roots. This whole nation was styled HYCSOS, that is, Shepherd-kings: for the first syllable HYC, according to the sacred dialect, denotes a king, as is SOS a shepherd; but this according to the ordinary dialect; and of these is compounded HYCSOS: but some say that these people were Arabians." Now in another copy it is said that this word does not denote Kings, but, on the contrary, denotes Captive Shepherds, and this on account of the particle HYC; for that HYC, with the aspiration, in the Egyptian tongue again denotes Shepherds, and that expressly also; and this to me seems the more probable opinion, and more agreeable to ancient history. [But Manetho goes on]: "These people, whom we have before named kings, and called shepherds also, and their descendants," as he says, "kept possession of Egypt five hundred and eleven years." After these, he says, "That the kings of Thebais and the other parts of Egypt made an insurrection against the shepherds, and that there a terrible and long war was made between them." He says further, "That under a king, whose name was Alisphragmuthosis, the shepherds were subdued by him, and were indeed driven out of other parts of Egypt, but were shut up in a place that contained ten thousand acres; this place was named Avaris." Manetho says, "That the shepherds built a wall round all this place, which was a large and a strong wall, and this in order to keep all their possessions and their prey within a place of strength, but that Thummosis the son of Alisphragmuthosis made an attempt to take them by force and by siege, with four hundred and eighty thousand men to lie rotund about them, but that, upon his despair of taking the place by that siege, they came to a composition with them, that they should leave Egypt, and go, without any harm to be done to them, whithersoever they would; and that, after this composition was made, they went away with their whole families and effects, not fewer in number than two hundred and forty thousand, and took their journey from Egypt, through the wilderness, for Syria; but that as they were in fear of the Assyrians, who had then the dominion over Asia, they built a city in that country which is now called Judea, and that large enough to contain this great number of men, and called it Jerusalem. (9) Now Manetho, in another book of his, says, "That this nation, thus called Shepherds, were also called Captives, in their sacred books." And this account of his is the truth; for feeding of sheep was the employment of our forefathers in the most ancient ages (10) and as they led such a wandering life in feeding sheep, they were called Shepherds. Nor was it without reason that they were called Captives by the Egyptians, since one of our ancestors, Joseph, told the king of Egypt that he was a captive, and afterward sent for his brethren into Egypt by the king's permission. But as for these matters, I shall make a more exact inquiry about them elsewhere.

15. But now I shall produce the Egyptians as witnesses to the antiquity of our nation. I shall therefore here bring in Manetho again, and what he writes as to the order of the times in this case; and thus he speaks: "When this people or shepherds were gone out of Egypt to Jerusalem, Tethtoosis the king of Egypt, who drove them out, reigned afterward twenty-five years and four months, and then died; after him his son Chebron took the kingdom for thirteen years; after whom came Amenophis, for twenty years and seven months; then came his sister Amesses, for twenty-one years and nine months; after her came Mephres, for twelve years and nine months; after him was Mephramuthosis, for twenty-five years and ten months; after him was Thmosis, for nine years and eight months; after him came Amenophis, for thirty years and ten months; after him came Orus, for thirty-six years and five months; then came his daughter Acenchres, for twelve years and one month; then was her brother Rathotis, for nine years; then was Acencheres, for twelve years and five months; then came another Acencheres, for twelve years and three months; after him Armais, for four years and one month; after him was Ramesses, for one year and four months; after him came Armesses Miammoun, for sixty-six years and two months; after him Amenophis, for nineteen years and six months; after him came Sethosis, and Ramesses, who had an army of horse, and a naval force. This king appointed his brother, Armais,, to be his deputy over Egypt." [In another copy it stood thus: After him came Sethosis, and Ramesses, two brethren, the former of whom had a naval force, and in a hostile manner destroyed those that met him upon the sea; but as he slew Ramesses in no long time afterward, so he appointed another of his brethren to be his deputy over Egypt.] He also gave him all the other authority of a king, but with these only injunctions, that he should not wear the diadem, nor be injurious to the queen, the mother of his children, and that he should not meddle with the other concubines of the king; while he made an expedition against Cyprus, and Phoenicia, and besides against the Assyrians and the Medes. He then subdued them all, some by his arms, some without fighting, and some by the terror of his great army; and being puffed up by the great successes he had had, he went on still the more boldly, and overthrew the cities and countries that lay in the eastern parts. But after some considerable time, Armais, who was left in Egypt, did all those very things, by way of opposition, which his brother had forbid him to do, without fear; for he used violence to the queen, and continued to make use of the rest of the concubines, without sparing any of them; nay, at the persuasion of his friends he put on the diadem, and set up to oppose his brother. But then he who was set over the priests of Egypt wrote letters to Sethosis, and informed him of all that had happened, and how his brother had set up to oppose him: he therefore returned back to Pelusium immediately, and recovered his kingdom again. The country also was called from his name Egypt; for Manetho says, that Sethosis was himself called Egyptus, as was his brother Armais called Danaus."

16. This is Manetho's account. And evident it is from the number of years by him set down belonging to this interval, if they be summed up together, that these shepherds, as they are here called, who were no other than our forefathers, were delivered out of Egypt, and came thence, and inhabited this country, three hundred and ninety-three years before Danaus came to Argos; although the Argives look upon him (12) as their most ancient king Manetho, therefore, hears this testimony to two points of the greatest consequence to our purpose, and those from the Egyptian records themselves. In the first place, that we came out of another country into Egypt; and that withal our deliverance out of it was so ancient in time as to have preceded the siege of Troy almost a thousand years. . .

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Sophiee1

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Posts: 12800

(10/16/09 11:00:44)

Moderator

For more information read Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition by James Hoffmeier and BIBLICAL PERSONALITIES AND ARCHAEOLOGY by Leah Bronner.

The Egyptians themselves mention Israel in the reign of Merneptah (1234-1214 BCE), who followed Ramses II (1300-1234 BCE). One line mentions Israel: "Israel is laid waste, its seed is not." Here is a picture of it:

ou might want to read the article at Aish

www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/Archaeology_and_the_Exodus.asp

Quote:
The archeological process is tedious and expensive. To date, only a tiny fraction of archeological sites related to the Bible have been excavated.

This thin archeological record means that any conclusions are based on speculation and projection. Archeology can only prove the existence of artifacts unearthed, not disprove that which hasn't been found. Lack of evidence... is no evidence of lack. . .

What was that about no evidence of the Exodus??? And you can't give even ONE bit of proof that Jsus existed, hence the continued harping on Jewish history not being real! I could continue on for many more posts, but what is the point? The title of this thread is was jsus a real person and this particular thread is returning to its main topic.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

UriYosef

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Posts: 2011

(10/16/09 15:48:11)

Director of Education

catholic,

Save your "proof" for the Christian discussion boards and, instead, keep a couple of Valliums handy while you read this, where all your so-called "proofs" are shown to be fakes with the actual facts.

UriYosef

Our raison d'être:

WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a)

The fruits of our effort:

The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!

catholic

okay

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Posts: 16

(10/16/09 21:31:07)

uriyosef why would you go to an atheist site and try to prove that Jesus was not real from there. so i will counter with a more popular atheist site http://www.infidels.org/l...jury/chap5.html#josephus and please do not block the link it is atheist and if you don't believe me just look around the site. but i will go into detail about proofs of jesus. this is taken by the book Josephus and the new testament "Taking all of these problems into consideration, a few scholars have argued that the entire passage (the testimonium) as it stands in Josephus is a Christian forgery. The Christian scribes who copied the Jewish historian's writings thought it intolerable that he should have said nothing about Jesus and spliced the paragraph in where it might logically have stood, in Josephus' account of Pilate's tenure. Some scholars have suggested that Eusebius himself was the forger, since he was the first to produce the passage…Most critics, however, have been reluctant to go so far. They have noted that, in general, Christian copyists were quite conservative in transmitting texts. Nowhere else in all of Josephus' voluminous writings is there strong suspicion of scribal tampering. Christian copyists also transmitted the works of Philo, who said many things that might be elaborated in a Christian direction, but there is no evidence that in hundreds of years of transmission, the scribes inserted their own remarks into Philo's text. To be sure, many of the "pseudepigrapha" that exist now only in Christian form are thought to stem from Jewish originals, but in this instance it may reflect the thorough Christian rewriting of Jewish models, rather than scribal insertions. That discussion is ongoing among scholars. But in the cases of Philo and Josephus, whose writings are preserved in their original language and form, one is hard pressed to find a single example of serious scribal alteration. To have created the testimonium out of whole cloth would be an act of unparalleled scribal audacity." (p.170-171) furthermore there is no need for any extra biblical sources since the new testament itself is a reliable source. which most historians do believe.

UriYosef

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Posts: 2012

(10/17/09 19:43:42)

Director of Education

catholic wrote:
furthermore there is no need for any extra biblical sources since the new testament itself is a reliable source. which most historians do believe.

You've got to be kidding! The Greek Testament "is a reliable source which most historians do believe"? Archeologists have shown just the opposite, and I deal with just the two nativity accounts in GMatt and GLuke and demonstrate that they cannot be both valid and, in fact, that neither is valid, in this article - O Little Town of Bethlehem… (of Galilee).

By the way, I have no problem using a source that provides verifiable facts, even if it belongs to atheists. I make an effort to validate evidence presented by any source that I would consider quoting.

UriYosef

Our raison d'être:

WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a)

The fruits of our effort:

The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!

Sophiee1

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Posts: 12811

(10/17/09 20:25:21)

Moderator

The GT reliable??? Even the various "gospels" conflict with one another on just about every "fact"! And let's not forget that it was written far after Jsus supposedly lived, by authors unknown and still to this day various versions disagree with each other because even the two main 'sources' (Vaticanus and Sinaticus) conflict with one another.

catholic, Josephus never claimed to have met Jsus (neither did Paul for that matter). Even IF Josephus had written about Jsus it would not prove that Jsus had lived since Josephus wasn't alive until after Jsus' supposed death.

As for the quotes in Josephus about Jsus which most do indeed realize are forgeries -- this has been supported by the finding of an Arabic copy of Josephus by Shlomo Pines. The copy dates to about the 10th century of the common era. Louis Feldman in his book Josephus, the Bible and History" wrote:

"In a startling find, Shlomo Pines publishes citations of the TF (Josephus Testimonium Flavianum) appearing in Arabic and Syriac works of the 9th-10th century. These quotations substantially resemble our current Testimonium, but do not have two of the most suspicious phrases: "he was the Messiah" and "if indeed he can be called a man". Pines suggests these editions may have used an authentic, uninterpolated version of Josephus' work."

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