Mary nurtured him and he grew in her. that's what they believe.
i'm glad you went to their official site so you know that according to JWs, the expression "begotten son of God" doesn't mean he's NOT created by God.
JD
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jodav |
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JWs believe the physical body of Jesus was created in Mary. Sperm or not, who knows. as a matter of fact, who cares?
Mary nurtured him and he grew in her. that's what they believe. i'm glad you went to their official site so you know that according to JWs, the expression "begotten son of God" doesn't mean he's NOT created by God. JD |
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TheXian |
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"jodav wrote:
No. Jsus doesn't have a BIOLOGICAL physical father. Not G-d. Not Joseph. No one. Mary was a virgin, a pure woman, not touched by any man when she conceived Jsus IF this were true then Jsus would have been ineligible to be a messiah." Why? He was born, and we all have God as our father. Doesn't seem like an issue to me. |
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SearchinMyRoots |
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I was under the impression the "holy spirit" impregnated Mary. Not that I study much of the nt. |
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Hope |
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Sorry, but what a lot of nonsense about "virgins" and "begotten sons"! One has to completely ignore one's G-d given common sense, let
alone any intelligence to believe (blind belief at that) in such doctrine!
And to get one fact right, in the time when the texts of the GT were composed the word VIRGIN means a woman who is not (yet) married!! That means ANY HUMAN MAN could have been the father! |
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Hope wrote:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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Sophiee1 |
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TheXian wrote:Let's take an example. Queen Elizabeth II is the monarch of Great Britain. If she adopted a child would that child be eligible to be a monarch of GB? Nope. In halacha (Jewish law) as defined in the Torah tribal lineage is passed only from biological father to biological child through zera (zera translates to children born of your body, aka sperm or in the case of women ova, that results in living children). Given the virgin birth concept -- however Jsus was inserted into Mary's womb -- Jsus was tribeless. More than that, he was a mamzer -- since Mary (per Jewish law) was an adultress no matter HOW she got pregnant. The problem is that Mary was married to Joseph and as such any child that was not biologically Joseph's child was both: 1. with out a tribe (no tribe of Judah, no descendant of King David or Solomon according to Jewish law) 2. a mamzer We could discuss the two lineages given for Jsus in the Greek Text (which also disqualify him for being a messiah) -- but that is unnecessary. If Jsus were the product of a "virgin birth" he was disqualified from being a messiah as a result of it. Have you ever read UriYosef's excellent article
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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Sophiee1 |
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Hope, the word "virgin" didn't exist in the early Greek Text -- the word was parthenos. Parthenos came to mean "virgin" but originally
it didn't even mean that. It was used to describe Dinah after her rape in Greek translations of the Torah.
As the Professor points out, per the GT Mary was MARRIED to Joseph when she was pregnant. We can go into detail of how it was possible for her to be married to Joseph and yet still a virgin if you'd like, but it isn't really pertinent. Fact is per the GT Mary was married to Joseph and he considered divorcing her. Fact is if anyone other than Joseph made her pregnant the resulting child was a mamzer and had no tribe. (BTW, females have their father's tribe from birth -- if the father's have one. When a woman marries she takes her husband's tribal status. Any offspring of the married couple also carry the husband's tribe. If the child is a result of any other father than the husband the child would be a mamzer and have no tribal status).
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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Hope |
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Thank you for the correction, Sophie.
I guess my point was that I find the whole debate about Jsus' "father" -pointless. |
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jji |
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to TheXian and jodav:
You guys might want to read the book by James D. Tabor entitled "Jesus Dynasty". Although it might not shed any light about paternity but it sure will connect a few dots about the new testament, with no disrespect to both of you here is a little background about me; I was brought up as a Xian (protestant) and studied in a protestant school, I would rather not discuss about Xianity here, but here me out, I've been reading the NT and most of jsus' message are all in the OT, and furthermore I think jsus never mentioned about a new religion but spreading Judaism around the world(which made me think I should not have been a Xian after all --- but of course there are a few more reasons that made me say that). The book also talks about Jsus Genealogy, and I hope this also gives some light on a different perspective, but as far as I can remember "Genealogical Scams and Flimflams Flash PDF" seems to coincide with the book. I hope that helps. |
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TheXian |
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"jsus never mentioned about a new religion but spreading Judaism around the world"
This is true. He didn't come to create X-ianity. He came to fufill the prophesies of the old testament. He wanted Judaism to be like X-ianity is (without our flaws, which we have many). |
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Sophiee1 |
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TheXian wrote:Do you have any idea how insulitng it is to Judaism to claim that Chrstianity or Jsus is a "fulfillment" of Judaism? This is the whole problem with "replacement theology" and it begins with calling the holy word of G-d "old." Old as in outdated and discarded. Jsus didn't fulfill even ONE prophecy of the Jewish T'nach. If he came to fulfill them any of them he failed miserably, but along the way Chrstians hijacked our holy works and distorted them with paganism (virgin births, man-gods) and then claimed to replace us with a "new" covenant built on top of paganism, not Judaism. Judaism is nothing like Chrstianity. Thank HaShem.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Sophiee1 wrote:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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Sophiee1 |
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I'd lay odds "theXian" didn't have any intention to insult Jews and THAT is why I released the post. They honestly come here to "share
the love" and have no idea how insulting and demeaning comments like "He wanted Judaism to be like X-ianity" are!
What if we were to say "Mohamed wanted Chrstianity to be like Islam"? Wonder how well THAT would go over!
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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vikkilyn |
this was what I meant | ||
Sophie said: This is what I was trying to show in another thread (here), but I couldn't seem to express it clearly. If a xian will try to understand some things about Judaism - not argue with it, just understand - then go back and put side-by-side the passages from the Jewish bible with the xian scripture in which the "fulfillment" or "replacement" is claimed, they will (should) start to understand why these comments are so insulting. In my example about Genesis 1 and GJohn 1 ..yes it is totally against Jewish teachings in the first place to claim that G-d "became flesh and dwelt among us [as a human]". But that's not all. On top of that, once I started over time to appreciate the special qualities and significance of the Hebrew letters and language, it struck me additionally how insulting is the reference to Jsus as the "Word" [of G-d]. And also how the wording of the whole passage parallels the Hebrew scripture - it has to be deliberately, it's too much to be coincidence. Thus better understanding also why Jews say: Sophiee: That's what I was trying to not just say, but also give a method by which xians could see it for themselves. |
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TheXian |
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I did not know i was insulting your beliefs, i am sorry, and ask you for your forgiveness.
If someone said Mohammad came to make Islam like X-ianity, I would take it as it is their belief (if its wrong or not), and that's just their look on things. But yes, more closed minded people would say that's blasphemy. We say "old" testament because it is "older" than the "new" testament. Some denominations tend to discard the older writings (Church of X, Evangelical Lutheran, Episcopal, etc.), but many of us do not, and use it everyday. My favorite passage is Ecclesiastes 1:2-4. The thing that gives me doubts, that i may be wrong with my belief, is that it does look very similar to Greek mythology. The thing that keeps me in it is Paul. He was a Jew. Hunted X-ians. Then he suddenly changed his mind because of a vision. I don't know where i stand in my faith, I still say i am a X-ian, but as of right now I attempt to live my present life for the next. |
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Netanel |
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There is really nothing Jewish about the character Paul. He is as Hellenistic Greek as it comes, and his teachings are completely foreign to
"Judaism." Paul emphasizes his supposed Jewish upbringing only to tear it down in order to build up his new "religion." If you examine
Paul's writings you will find that much of the stuff reminiscent of "Greek mythology" is in fact in his letters. Based on your comments
I would recommend you check out the book, "The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity" by Hyam Maccoby.
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jji |
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Netanel, you are very right on that.
Here is another, Paul (aka Saul of Tarsus) even went to James (who replaced Jsus when he died) and reported his progress, and he asked James that the gentiles he converted do not want to become Jews or find it difficult to follow the Jewish laws, so James said that it is alright and they shall be called righteous gentiles, I am not going to give you the rest of the passage as again the NT is corrupted by the Nicaea council, but here is an excerpt of it in Acts 15:19-21 (but this is somehow written differently than the other NT version that I have read this version I got from biblegateway). 19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."Now where does it say that you must become a xian? As you can see the early xians who wrote the gospel after the Jewish revolt on 70 CE(70 AD), changed their thinking to distance themselves from the Jews and tried to change things that they may still find favor with the Roman empire. No matter how they(early xian fathers) tried to hide the truth or facts, some of the real facts leaks out. My analysis on Paul's action; he was trying to convert the pagans in a way that they would easily understand and accept, hence the current form of Xianity. And I think, this was like a 5th column that they were trying to organize and destroy the Roman Empire from within and perhaps start a revolution in some sort. Furthermore Paul was a so called diaspora Jew (although I do not know if I am correct in this) and he is more likely familiar with the local lores and legends of the Greco-Roman Empire because he did not grow up in Palestine (or Israel), that is why he concocted the story of the virgin, which is similar to Alkmind bearing Hercules after she was seduced by Zeus. Now with these stories he created; attracted the pagans more than any of Paul's contemporary at that time. Perhaps now is the right time for Judaism to really be taught around the world. Being here in this forum I have never felt more free, I have found the truth and it has set me free, there are a lot of Xian denominations out there that accuses each other of heresy, the fact that they are sill fighting is because they do not understand the Judaism religion because it was so corrupted by Paul (Paul has become like a thief of the faith, oh by the way Sophiee1 Paul is the hijacker of the Jewish faith). Perhaps you can look it up on wikipedia here and I guess this link would help too. In conclusion Xianity or Xians should not be Xians at all, they should either become a Noahide, fully convert to Judaism, or become a righteous gentile. I for now would settle to be called a righteous gentile since there are no Jewish tribunal on my side of the world that I know of, that I could express my intention to become a Noahide(okay so I'm just trying to piece things as I am new here and just recently found this site). Again theXian try to read the book "Jesus Dynasty" by James Tabor, I'm sorry about trying to sell his book here but I find the author very much like me and he has found what he has been seeking for in years and I thank G-d for this person that made me also feel that I am not alone with my views and that he also shares mine, whats more is that he has showed me how corrupted the NT is of which I thought was already corrupted when I was a teenager(largely because it was written by the Roman Catholics and the protestants are simply using the same Bible as they are). And the JEWS are right! PS I am rather new here and would like to know more, is there a link or links here that I can get started with like the Noahide laws? I'm from the Philippines and it is a very Roman Catholic country, we do not have any Jewish congregation here that I know of. I know I found a link here somewhere but I don't really have a lot of time I can only read the forums when I am at work on a break. That way I can just bookmark them for later reading. Thanks. |
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Sophiee1 |
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jji wrote:For information on Noachidism check out Ask Noah, Noahide.org, Noahide Nation, The Noahide Code by Alan W. Cecil. The Virtual Yeshiva is our sister site which has many live and recorded classes (audio) including ones on Noachidism. The counter missionary section has many articles contrasting Judaism to Chrstianity. So does Jews for Judaism and Outreach Judaism, and Judaism's Answer. For information just about Judaism (not contrasting it to Chrstianity) some excellent resources include Being Jewish, Aish HaTorah, Ask Moses where you can ask questions to a Rabbi or puruse the extensive Q&A already there.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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weboh |
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ProfBenTziyyon wrote:I don't believe you can correctly say this, when it wouldn't or even doesn't change what the G-d is or isn't. Can you elaborate your point? |
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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weboh wrote:
"The concept of 'gods' that have 'sons' is pagan"NEEDS elaboration? http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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