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Joe,

I would respond to your questions as follows:

By performing various miraculous signs, and using the transmitted code from Joseph, Moses had earned the right to get the attention of the Hebrews in Egypt, not an absolute faith, just their attention.

Only, once he literaally succeeded in physically leading them out of the bondage of Egypt (as had been promised to them) and subsequently to Sinai three months later, did he fully earn the right to be trusted as an emmissary of G-d.

D.

jodav wrote:

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Which brings us to the "Signs".

As for the signs, I stand to be corrected but according to Jews and learned people posting on this forum, signs have never been considered as proof that a person is a prophet of God (and that's exactly why Jews refer to the mount Sinai event to show that the proof of Moses prophethood is confirmed by national revelation).

But the thing is that national revelation happened way after the time period that my questions belong to.

Also, according to Deut. 13, false prophets can perform signs and wonders.

and what about pharaoh? Assuming pakod yif'kod et'chem is a secret code word, pharaoh didn't know it and had nothing to do with it.

So, on what basis was pharaoh supposed to accept Moses as a prophet of God and believe his word? If false prophets can perform great signs and wonders (Deut. 13), then it's no longer proof. pharaoh could easily say: "my gods are TESTING me with a false prophet named Moses who is performing signs".

So the question still stands:

1. on what basis were the Israelites supposed to believe in Moses when they were still in Egypt? (way before Sinai)

2. on what basis was pharaoh supposed to believe that Moses is a prophet of God and obey Moses? what was the proof that Moses was a prophet of God?

when Moses first came up to the Israelites and pharaoh, what did he say or do to convince them that God talked to him and that he's a prophet of God?

3. how did Moses himself know that it was really God the Creator of heavens and earth talking to him from the burning bush and commanding him to do thing. how did he know he was really a prophet of God?

OK. Where to start...

1) As I mentioned before it was neither necessary or important for the Hebrews to have any kind of abiding "belief" in Moses, when they were in Egypt. He simply needed their attention in order to organize them. In this context performing miracles is valid. The Torah does not say pay no attention to someone performing signs. It says don't necessarily believe they carry the word of G-d. If they contradict G-d's Sinai given commandments, and especially if they encourage you to practice alien forms of worship, then don't believe them. But by all means pay them attention. In fact, both Moses and G-d, in preparing for his mission acknowledge the possibility that the Hebrews will not be impressed by the signs. Which is why G-d emphasizes to Moses (as Sophie mentioned earlier) that "" And He said, "For I will be with you, and this is the sign for you that it was I Who sent you. When you take the people out of Egypt, you will worship G-d on this mountain."

Get it? This is the sign. Not the blood, not the snake. Not the "leprosy". But the success of his mission and bringing them to Sinai, which by the way was only few months later, not "way after" as you assert.

2) Pahraoh was a Pagan, familair with magic, and as the Torah says, not overly impressed with Moses "tricks" which his own magicians initially replicated. However, when the preponderance of plagues, exactly as predicted by Moses in precise measure and precise time duration became so undeniably clear to the entirety of a his nation, all of whom ultimately begged him to let the Hebrews go, they then had their desired effect. However, this is all largely irrelevant. Jews don't take their theolgical instruction from whatever ultimately persuaded a nation of pagans to listen to Moses. They served a purpose in G-d's plans and that purpose was fulfiled.

3) As to Moses? Interesting question. I would (without a thorough knwledge of the scholarship on the topic) suggest that Moses may in fact have had his initial doubts. This would explain why he repeatedly questioned G-d as to whether the Hebrews would believe him and whether he would succeed. If he was thorougly convinced that it was G-d, I think he would have been more secure. Noentheless, he felt duty bound and gave it his best. But, again, Moses personal convictions are not the issue.

The bottom line, is you are trying to construct an argument that Jews are expected to obey miracle workers so much so that even if one shows up 1400 years after Sinai and says, "Hold on guys, you've got it all wrong, j-sus is G-d. Worship him", they should just believe him because he peforms miracles. I think I've explained why you don't have an argument. Moses got the attention - with miracles - of a people waiting for precisley such a deliverer and earned their belief when he delivered on G-d's promise. He then brought them to Siani where G-d made his wishes for the Jews crystal clear to all the Jews for all times. j-sus by contrast (and more importantly Paul) expected the Jews to abandon everything they understood based on some alleged miracles and the private visions of one man.

Sorry, No dice.

D