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tyolilums	Hebrew Scripture	Lead	[-]
Posts: 538 (10/28/09 08:50:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None How would you best describe the Hebrew scriptures? Do you simply say they are inspired? Or more than that?
Rabbi Yisroel		#1	[-]
Posts: 28 (10/28/09 11:56:18) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This was posted in Ask the Rabbi, but I think it better belongs here.
ProfBenTziyyon		#2	[-]
Posts: 2553 (10/28/09 12:23:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	tyolilums wrote: How would you best describe the Hebrew scriptures? Do you simply say they are inspired? Or more than that? The literal meaning of the verb "inspire" is to "breathe (something) into (something)". This verb is therefore not really appropriate either for God Himself (who does not breathe) or for the Holy Texts (as one can't "breathe" anything into a book). I therefore prefer to use "motivate" or "influence". The three divisions of the T'nach have different degrees of sanctity (or, to put that another way, God had different levels of "involvement" in their composition): The five books of the Torah (B'réshιt, Sh'mot, Vayikra, B'midbar and D'varium) are books of the highest level of Divine involvement, composed by God and dictated by Him, word for word, to Mosheh Rabbeinu ("our Rabbi, Mosheh") who then wrote it down. The eight N'viyim ("Prophetic books"), i.e. Y'hoshua, Shoftim, Sh'muél, M'lachim, Y'shayahu, Yirm'yahu, Y'ḥezkél and T'rei Asar, are books of the intermediate level of Divine involvement, in which the authors were motivated (influenced) by God to write even though He left it to them what they wrote. Finally, the eleven K'tuvim ("Scriptures"), i.e. T'hillim, Mishlei, Iyyov, Shir hashirim, Rut, Eichah, Kohelet, Estér, Daniyyél, Ezra-N'ḥemyah and Divrei hayamim, are books of the lowest level of Divine involvement − they are "sacred literature", but God neither composed them nor even motivated (influenced) the authors to write them. So, even though the eleven K'tuvim were not "God‑breathed" (whatever that's supposed to mean), they are still "useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (does anyone recognise those words? they come from the Sha'ul the Apostate's "Second Silly Letter to Timotéus", ch.3 v.16). http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל Last Edited By: ProfBenTziyyon 10/30/09 05:47:15. Edited 1 times.
Sophiee1		#3	[-]
Posts: 12862 (10/28/09 12:59:45) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The five books of the Torah (B'réshιt, Sh'mot, Vayikra, B'midbar and D'varium) in English translation are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. The eight N'viyim ("Prophetic books"), i.e. Y'hoshua, Shoftim, Sh'muél, M'lachim, Y'shayahu, Yirm'yahu, Y'ḥezkél and T'rei Asar in English translation are Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nachum, Habaluk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi. Finally, the eleven K'tuvim ("Scriptures"), i.e. T'hillim, Mishlei, Iyyov, Shir hashirim, Rut, Eichah, Kohelet, Estér, Daniyyél, Ezra-N'ḥemyah and Divrei hayamim are in English translation, Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastics, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, and Chronicles. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
Rabbi Yisroel		#4	[-]
Posts: 29 (10/28/09 13:27:45) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	ProfBenTziyyon wrote: The eight N'viyim ("Prophetic books"), i.e. Y'hoshua, Shoftim, Sh'muél, M'lachim, Y'shayahu, Yirm'yahu, Y'ḥezkél and T'rei Asar, are books of the next lower level, in which the authors were motivated by God to write even though He left it to them what they wrote. Finally, the eleven K'tuvim ("Scriptures"), i.e. T'hillim, Mishlei, Iyyov, Shir hashirim, Rut, Eichah, Kohelet, Estér, Daniyyél, Ezra-N'ḥemyah and Divrei hayamim, are books of the lowest level of sanctity, which God neither composed nor even motivated the authors to write them. Which is something Xians can't quite get a handle on. Their whole religion is dependant on the whole of the Bible being the word of G-d which, as you quite rightly say, it isn't.
ProfBenTziyyon		#5	[-]
Posts: 2555 (10/28/09 13:37:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Rabbi Yisroel wrote: Which is something Xians can't quite get a handle on. Their whole religion is dependant on the whole of the Bible being the word of G-d which, as you quite rightly say, it isn't. That's what happens when you steal another culture's holy books which you have no knowledge about, and invent "traditions" about them to make up for your lack of actual knowledge. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Ezekah		#6	[-]
Posts: 187 (10/28/09 18:37:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Rabbi Yisroel wrote: ProfBenTziyyon wrote: The eight N'viyim ("Prophetic books"), i.e. Y'hoshua, Shoftim, Sh'muél, M'lachim, Y'shayahu, Yirm'yahu, Y'ḥezkél and T'rei Asar, are books of the next lower level, in which the authors were motivated by God to write even though He left it to them what they wrote. Finally, the eleven K'tuvim ("Scriptures"), i.e. T'hillim, Mishlei, Iyyov, Shir hashirim, Rut, Eichah, Kohelet, Estér, Daniyyél, Ezra-N'ḥemyah and Divrei hayamim, are books of the lowest level of sanctity, which God neither composed nor even motivated the authors to write them. Which is something Xians can't quite get a handle on. Their whole religion is dependant on the whole of the Bible being the word of G-d which, as you quite rightly say, it isn't. I dunno Rabbi, they don't even do that consistently. They've got the contradictions between the so-called "Old" and "New", they've got differing bibles depending on the xian denomination, and they even tend to toss out the literal text and rely on the so-called "spirit" of the text. In my experience, they tend to look down at the literal text and rely much more on their feelings of what they believe it ought to say.
tyolilums		#7	[-]
Posts: 542 (10/29/09 09:01:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	To the Prof, the next logical question (ignoring the one as to why my question better belongs here where people are supposed to be discussing Counter-Missionary resources developed by Michael Levy to increase the dialog regarding the deceptive actions of missionaries among Jews and Gentiles....) is if the K'tuvim writings aren't composed by God and the men weren't even motivated by God to write, why have them?
UriYosef		#8	[-]
Posts: 2046 (10/29/09 09:37:22) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	ty, I think you have a point regarding the right place for this topic. Therefore, I moved it to the General Judaism Topics forum. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
Sophiee1		#9	[-]
Posts: 12874 (10/29/09 13:54:53) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	tyolilums wrote: if the K'tuvim writings aren't composed by God and the men weren't even motivated by G-d to write, why have them? Ty, you may have noticed that none of us Jews disagreed with the Professor. He correctly answered your question. The codification of the T'nach was done by the Men of the Great Assembly. The members of the Anshei Knesset HaGedolah (Men of the Great Assembly) were 120 prophets including some who made their way into the 'nach: Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi, to name three. This group assembled after the Babylonian exile. They realized that many Jews remained in the Diaspora and that the level of holiness was declining. The age of prophecy was ending. To keep Judaism alive for the exiles then and now they compiled the T'nach which included the prophets who, aside from having a message to their own generations, had lessons for future ones, too. They included various Writings (Ketuvi'im) they felt carried a message for future generations -- and that they didn't want to be lost to the vagaries of time. The Psalms were mostly written by King David, and were sung at the second Temple. Those are worth saving, wouldn't you agree? There are stories , and histories, and poetry and even homily -- but all carry a message that re-enforce the mitzvot in the Torah. To make life even more interesting there were heated (um, for want of a better word) discussions about what should be included or discarded. Along with the T'nach they created the Jewish prayer book as well. So I'll answer your question of "why have them?" with a typically Jewish answer: "why not have them?" סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12 Last Edited By: Sophiee1 10/29/09 19:21:01. Edited 1 times.

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