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Ezekah	Clothing	Lead	[-]
Posts: 189 (11/01/09 22:40:35) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None First, I was having discussions this evening with another Jew regarding the Jewish uniform. As we know, many Jews nowadays wear clothes based on the fashion of 18th century (CE) Polish noblemen. We all want to dress our best before G-d, but why did the fashions freeze? A modern suit and jacket also presents a great appearance to G-d. Why have fashions frozen nowadays based on this 200 year old example? Second, what about clothing styles during 1000 CE through 1500 CE? Was there any particular style of clothing that was as common to Jews then as now?
Sophiee1		#1	[-]
Posts: 12883 (11/02/09 06:48:07) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Best not to generalize. Not all Chabadniks dress in the traditional black suit, long coat and big fedora. The ones who do wear it as a type of "uniform" so that they might be proudly identified as Chabadniks (just as soldiers will wear their uniform in public or teenagers all wear the same type of clothing). Chabad is an outreach organization dedicated to bringing Jews back to observance so they want to "stand out." Observant men (not just Chabad) wear tzitzit (fringes) at the corners the torso. Some wear a katan. The tzitzi has a thread of "techeilet" running through it. They also wear a kippah (skull cap) on their head as a sign of respect to HaShem. Do you consider these an odd reflection based on Polish noblemen or perhaps Roman noblemen? The tzitzi is commanded in the Torah -- should we not wear it because it is "out of fashion"? Jews raise their "pinky" (right hand) in honor of the Torah. This dates back to a Grecian sign for respect of a nobleman passing by. Should we not do that because it stems from Grecian culture, even though it is one of respect? The Chabad is very accepting of all Jews, no matter how they dress. Perhaps others should be the same. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12 Last Edited By: Sophiee1 11/02/09 06:52:59. Edited 1 times.
ProfBenTziyyon		#2	[-]
Posts: 2567 (11/02/09 06:54:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ezekah wrote: As we know, many Jews nowadays wear clothes based on the fashion of 18th century (CE) Polish noblemen. Only חֲשׁוּדִים ḥashudim dress in the style you describe. The reason for this is that, although Jews were generally very poor in the time the various sects of ḥashudim emerged, they honoured the "Rebbe" of each community by bringing him lavish gifts for his support and maintenance, with the result that the "Rebbes" quickly became very wealthy and so could afford to dress in the style of a nobleman (not all of them were Polish, by the way − the ḥashuddei Gur, to name just one sect of Russian origin, dress in clothes of Russian style). The "rank and file" ḥashudim then began copying the way their particular "Rebbe" dressed and the result was that pretty soon each sect was wearing a kind of "uniform" based on the style of dress favoured by the "Rebbe" of their particular village. Sophie, the questioner never mentioned Ḥabbad and they, in fact, do NOT wear a "uniform" like other ḥashudim do. And what, pray tell, is a "tzitzi"? There is no such word! http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Sophiee1		#3	[-]
Posts: 12884 (11/02/09 07:10:25) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The Chabad in the United States are known for their "uniform" dress code. The Chabad are the most visible of the chassidim in the United States. Tzitzi is a transliteration of ציצת. I presume you know what that is? סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
Rabbi Yisroel		#4	[-]
Posts: 30 (11/02/09 07:17:13) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	ProfBenTziyyon wrote: Only חֲשׁוּדִים ḥashudim dress in the style you describe. What are חֲשׁוּדִים? Suspected ones?
ProfBenTziyyon		#5	[-]
Posts: 2568 (11/02/09 07:47:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Rabbi Yisroel wrote: What are חֲשׁוּדִים? Suspected ones? Exactly so. "Suspected" of heresy. This is how they were referred to by the early mitnagg'dim. As I am sure you are aware, in certain dialects of Iddish, the vowel letter מְלָאפוּם m'lafum (וּ) is vocalised as "i" or "ee" and the consonant שׁ shin is vocalised as a soft (sibilant) "s"; the Hebrew word חֲשׁוּדִים would therefore have been pronounced "ḥassidim" − absolutely no connection with חֲסִידִים ("pious ones"). http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
ProfBenTziyyon		#6	[-]
Posts: 2569 (11/02/09 07:57:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sophiee1 wrote: Tzitzi is a transliteration of ציצת. I presume you know what that is? Your sarcasm is unnecessary − I know far better than you what a צִיצִת is (you don't even wear one). And there is a tav at the end of צִיצִת, a tzitzit. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל Last Edited By: Sophiee1 11/02/09 10:30:23. Edited 1 times.
RabbiEzriel		#7	[-]
Posts: 282 (11/02/09 08:34:00) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sophiee1 wrote: The Chabad in the United States are known for their "uniform" dress code. The Chabad are the most visible of the chassidim in the United States. Sigh, The picture you provide, Sophiee, could come from any one of thousands of yeshivos around the world. The style of dress (suit, fedora)has nothing to do with Chabad..In fact, my sons and I all dress that way (except that sometimes I wear a blue shirt). And seeing as every Jew has the equivalency of royalty, we should dress like noblemen and noblewomen. Rabbi Ezriel Yellin Lecturer, The Virtual Yeshiva www.virtualyeshiva.com RabbiEzriel@gmail.com Rabbi Eleazar said in the name of Rabbi Hanina: The disciples of the sages increase peace throughout the world as it is said "And all your children shall be taught of Hashem, and great shall be the peace of your children." Talmud Bavli Nazir 66b
Rabbi Yisroel		#8	[-]
Posts: 31 (11/02/09 08:34:19) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	ProfBenTziyyon wrote: Rabbi Yisroel wrote: What are חֲשׁוּדִים? Suspected ones? Exactly so. "Suspected" of heresy. This is how they were referred to by the early mitnagg'dim. As I am sure you are aware, in certain dialects of Iddish, the vowel letter מְלָאפוּם m'lafum (וּ) is vocalised as "i" or "ee" and the consonant שׁ shin is vocalised as a soft (sibilant) "s"; the Hebrew word חֲשׁוּדִים would therefore have been pronounced "ḥassidim" − absolutely no connection with חֲסִידִים ("pious ones"). Interesting. Do you have any evidence for that, Professor?
ProfBenTziyyon		#9	[-]
Posts: 2570 (11/02/09 08:59:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Rabbi Yisroel wrote: Interesting. Do you have any evidence for that, Professor? Only the word of my late father זצ"ל − but it is a matter of historical record that הַגָּאוֹן רַבֵּֽנוּ אֵלִיָּֽהוּ pronounced חֵֽרֶם against them (not just once, but twice) because he considered them heretics. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Sophiee1		#10	[-]
Posts: 12885 (11/02/09 10:37:13) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	ProfBenTziyyon wrote: Sophiee1 wrote: Tzitzi is a transliteration of ציצת. I presume you know what that is? Your sarcasm is unnecessary − I know far better than you what a צִיצִת is (you don't even wear one). I was not being sarcastic. ציצת is found in the Torah, but the modern spelling is different (two yuds) so even with your great knowledge I have no way of knowing if you'd be familiar with that particular spelling. Yes, obviously there is a tav at the end (I spelled it!), but it is pronounced "tzitzi" in the United States. Most certainly I don't wear one, I'm not a man! Women don't wear men's clothing, nu? Once again we seem to be getting "off track" on a very minor "nit" that has nothing to do with answering the original question! This horse is dead, so let's stop beating it. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
Sophiee1		#11	[-]
Posts: 12886 (11/02/09 10:44:02) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	RabbiEzriel wrote: The picture you provide, Sophiee, could come from any one of thousands of yeshivos around the world. The style of dress (suit, fedora)has nothing to do with Chabad.. Rabbi Ezriel, the picture is from the Chabad website (http://www.chabad.org). I see nothing wrong in the style of dress, and many of them in my Shul dress in that manner, as does the Rabbi and Chazan. I think it is a wonderful sign of respect, and indeed is a type of "uniform" for those who lead the Rebbe's "army" to bring Jews back to observance. Likewise women wear modest dress (sleeves past the elbow, longer skirts, etc.). Why should we or they be ashamed for being modest and showing respect? Are there Chabadniks who do not dress this way? The wonderful thing about Chabad is their inclusiveness! But as I wrote in my first post: "not all Chabadniks dress in the traditional black suit, long coat and big fedora. The ones who do wear it as a type of "uniform" so that they might be proudly identified as Chabadniks." סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
UriYosef		#12	[-]
Posts: 2051 (11/02/09 13:01:51) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sophiee1 wrote: Yes, obviously there is a tav at the end (I spelled it!), *but it is pronounced "tzitzi" in the United States. Sorry, Sophie, but that is incorrect. The Ashkenazim* pronounce it as "tzitzis" and the Sefardim pronounce it as "tzitzit" - I never heard anyone pronounce it as "tzitzi". If you hear someone pronounce it that way, you should correct them. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
UriYosef		#13	[-]
Posts: 2052 (11/02/09 13:11:38) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sophiee1 wrote: Best not to generalize. Not all Chabadniks dress in the traditional black suit, long coat and big fedora. The ones who do wear it as a type of "uniform" so that they might be proudly identified as Chabadniks (just as soldiers will wear their uniform in public or teenagers all wear the same type of clothing). Although I don't see that HaBaD was mentioned in the opening post, I will say that this type of clothing is not unique to HaBaD. If you visit the metropolitan New York area, a trip to Brooklyn & Monsey, NY, Lakewood, NJ, and several other towns with significant Orthodox Jewish communities will verify that. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!! Last Edited By: UriYosef 11/02/09 13:15:41. Edited 1 times.
Sophiee1		#14	[-]
Posts: 12887 (11/02/09 13:35:06) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Absolutely, but outside of New York it is most common to see Chabadniks dressed in such a manner than others. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
ProfBenTziyyon		#15	[-]
Posts: 2572 (11/02/09 14:35:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sophiee1 wrote: outside of New York it is most common to see Chabadniks dressed in such a manner than others. What about members of the Belzer, Bobover, Gérer, Satmarer and N'turei Karta communities − not to mention 101 smaller and less well-known groups (Skviri, Tschechenover, and so on)? http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל Last Edited By: Sophiee1 11/02/09 17:33:58. Edited 1 times.
Pamela 1965		#16	[-]
Posts: 47 (11/02/09 15:39:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I live in Pennsylvania and the Amish men dress very close to Jewish men. Well if you don't believe me just google Amish men.
Sophiee1		#17	[-]
Posts: 12888 (11/02/09 17:38:33) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	ProfBenTziyyon wrote: Sophiee1 wrote: outside of New York it is most common to see Chabadniks dressed in such a manner than others. What about members of the Belzer, Bobover, Gérer, Satmarer and N'turei Karta communities − not to mention 101 smaller and less well-known groups (Skviri, Tschechenover, and so on)? As I said, you won't find many of these other groups in the United States outside of New York (perhaps small groups in South Florida, but very small). You are far more likely to find Young Israel, and even they are less visible than the Chabad to Jews outside of New York. I'm not saying that they are completely non-existent, just very, very rare. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
ProfBenTziyyon		#18	[-]
Posts: 2573 (11/02/09 18:02:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sophiee1 wrote: As I said, you won't find many of these other groups in the United States outside of New York.... It may surprise you to learn this, but there are Jews living in other parts of the World than in the United States of America − quite a lot of us, in fact. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Sophiee1		#19	[-]
Posts: 12889 (11/02/09 19:07:02) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Mordochai, my comment about "outside of New York" made it clear I was speaking of the United States since Israel is a whole 'nother story. The question was ASKED by an American and the subject of dress being "fashion freeze" relates directly to how people dress in America since in Israel there is dress from around the world, correct? Again, the topic has been taken adrift and I am totally puzzled as to "why." סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
Ezekah		#20	[-]
Posts: 190 (11/02/09 22:48:12) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Various posters wrote: 1) The "rank and file" ḥashudim then began copying the way their particular "Rebbe" dressed and the result was that pretty soon each sect was wearing a kind of "uniform" based on the style of dress favoured by the "Rebbe" of their particular village. 2) my sons and I all dress that way (except that sometimes I wear a blue shirt). And seeing as every Jew has the equivalency of royalty, we should dress like noblemen and noblewomen. 3) Why should we or they be ashamed for being modest and showing respect? Thank you for the multiple responses. Rather than respond separately to each one, I've bundled them all together here. Basically, the responses all state that we want to dress as royalty, we want to be modest, and we want to show respect. I say, that's great. However, where is it written that this style of clothing is the ONLY way to accomplish that? For example, a modern suit and tie accomplishes the same thing. Any idea why clothing styles haven't changed in the past few centuries, while still remaining noble, respectful, and modest?

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