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catholic, Isaiah 53 gets dredged up about every week or so. It has been discussed at length and to death, but feel free to ask specific questions.

It isn't necessary to have "thoughts" as to whom the prophet Isaiah is referencing. The prophet identifies the servant in Isaiah 53. If you read Isaiah you'll see that time and time and time again he calls Israel G-d's servant. (So does Jeremiah).

Remember that Jacob is another name for Israel.

Quote:

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Isaiah 41 8. But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9. Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you.

Isaiah 44 1. And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 2. So said HaShem your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun (a poetic name for Israel) whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 44:21 "Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are my servant, O Israel. I have made you, you are my servant; O Israel, I will not forget you.

Isaiah 45 4. For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me.

Isaiah 49 3. And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

Isaiah 49:7 This is what HaShem says- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of HaShem , who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."

Jeremiah 30:10 " 'So do not fear, O Jacob my servant ;do not be dismayed, O Israel,' declares HaShem .

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Also see Isaiah 42:19-20; 43:10 to see that Israel is the singular servant, nowhere is this term used for the messiah. Jeremiah 30:10 also names Israel as the servant and Jeremiah 30:17 says that the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by G-d, just like in Isaiah 53:4!

As for Isaiah 42:1-4 specifically, it is also Israel (as is easily discerned since Isaiah identifies Israel as the servant just a few lines before and after these lines. As Rashi points out, there is another phrase in 42:1 that identifies Israel as the servant and this is the line "my chosen one."

Quote:

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My chosen one Israel is called My chosen one ([mss.:] His chosen one) (Ps. 135:4) For the Eternal chose Jacob for Himself. Scripture states also (infra 45:4): For the sake of My servant Jacob and Israel My chosen one.

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Don't confuse Jews with Judaism. Karl Marx was a Jew, but he wasn't Jewish. Groucho Marx was also Jewish. Just because a Jew believes something doesn't mean it was Torah and Judaism believes, kapish?

Judaism and Isaiah (the book of) is clear that in the plain meaning the servant of the servant songs is Israel. There is no disagreement about this in Judaism.

This thread may better belong in the General Judaism thread.

A friendly reminder to read the rules, discussions about denominations are inappropriate.

Having said that, it puzzles me why Chrstians are so fixated on

A) Isaiah 53

B) Convincing Jews that the servant is not Israel

Fact is, even if one could make an argument for some individual as the servant in Isaiah 53 -- even in p'shat -- it is a huge leap to then say that the person could be Jsus. Quite obviously Jsus (as portrayed in the GT) doesn't fit the servant in any way, shape or form. He didn't have children. He didn't live a long life. He wasn't buried with the poor. He didn't die with the rich. He didn't return the Jews from exile. In other words Jsus didn't fit any of the prophecies made by the prophet in chapter 53.

UriYosef stated very clearly that non-Jews who write about Isaiah 53 do not understand Jewish exegesis of the T'nach. Yet they insist on referencing Jewish sources as if they DO understand them. They take the words of sages who are speaking of drash or sod and because they don't even know what those are they quote Ramban, or Ibn Ezra, or Targum Yonathan out of total ignorance. Some perhaps out of deceit, others out of ignorance which is replicated as one Chrstian hands down a badly translated, out of context quote by "Driver & Neubauer."

But even IF those sages had been speaking of the plain meaning of Isaiah 53 it still would never fit the Chrstian man-god.

LOL, apparently so -- and even that is a partial chapter!