I want to verify something. I know just enough to be dangerous sometimes. :)
I still don't have a Hebrew concordance. But I pulled the following from a Christian search site on the KJV/NIV/NAS for 'The Son of Man". I got
the following hits.
Numbers 23:19, Job 25:6, Job 35:8, Psalm 8:4/5, Psalm 80:17, Psalm 144:3, Psalm 146:3, Isaiah 51:12, Isaiah 56:2, Daniel 7:13
I looked at the Hebrew of all of these and I don't see a 'ha' to indicate a specific one 'the or that'. I think they
all really generic, "a son of man".
So would someone be willing to verify that there is really no place in the Hebrew Scriptures where the exact term 'The Son of Man' is used?
thanks
ty
[ty, I had to change the color of your post since some of it came out in black when you copied and pasted the citations.
(UY)]
"The Son of Man"
| Author | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|
 tyolilums |
"The Son of Man" |
Lead | |
|
Posts: 544 (11/03/09 15:11:34) |
Last Edited By: UriYosef 11/03/09 15:21:49.
Edited 1 time.
|
||
|
Sophiee1 |
|||
|
Posts: 12898 (11/03/09 16:23:04) Moderator |
Numbers 23:19 says that G-d is not a בן-אדם : ben adam, "son of adam" or "son of man."
Job 16:21, Job 25:6 and 35:8 also use "ben adam" as does Psalm 8:5, 80:18, and 146:3. Ezekiel uses it over 90 times, usually to refer to himself. Isaiah 51:12 has ומבן־אדם (uniben adam). Isaiah 56:2 has ובן־אדם. Daniel 7:13 uses כבר אנש which is Aramaic (k'bar 'enosh), enosh also translates as man. Son of man. Daniel 8:17 uses בן-אדם (ben adam). There are a few words in Hebrew which are translated as "man." Adam is one of them, Enosh is another. Gever a third. Adam is the most prestigious of the names since Adam was created in G-d's image. Adam, interestingly enough, is the only word for man that is the same in singular and plural. I didn't see a "the" ("ha") in any of these instances, but I didn't search through all 90+ in Ezekiel either!
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
|
||
|
ProfBenTziyyon |
|||
|
Posts: 2581 (11/03/09 18:42:33) |
tyolilums wrote:
1. אִישׁ ish,Hebrew grammar requires that for a phrase including a noun in s'michut [the genitive case] to be translated "the X of Y", the הֵא הַיְּדִיאָה (definite article hé) must be prefixed to the second of the two nouns (the first of the two can NEVER have the definite article hé), e.g. בֵּית סֵֽפֶר beit séfer = "a school", בֵּית הַסֵּֽפֶר beit haséfer = "the school". None of the forms בֶּן הָאִישׁ ben ha'ish,occurs anywhere in the Scriptures. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Last Edited By: ProfBenTziyyon
11/03/09 20:17:20.
Edited 1 times.
|
||
|
Sharbano |
|||
|
Posts: 4 (11/03/09 21:43:49) |
tyolilums wrote: You can purchase the electonic version of "Tanach Plus" and it has a "word search" (concordance) that may help in this. Since it has English and Hebrew you can search either one. |
||
|
tyolilums |
|||
|
Posts: 545 (11/04/09 13:14:54) |
Thanks everyone!
|
||
|
SearchinMyRoots |
|||
|
Posts: 622 (11/04/09 20:24:18) |
Great Observation Ty!
|
||
|
ProfBenTziyyon |
|||
|
Posts: 2592 (11/05/09 07:01:55) |
tyolilums wrote:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Last Edited By: ProfBenTziyyon
11/05/09 07:22:28.
Edited 1 times.
|
||
|
ProfBenTziyyon |
|||
|
Posts: 2593 (11/05/09 07:45:05) |
tyolilums wrote:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
||
|
tyolilums |
|||
|
Posts: 547 (11/08/09 14:11:51) |
Prof, I guess I'm not that cultured. I had to look up who he was.
But I like this other quote by him, "Blessed is the man who expects nothing, for he shall never be disappointed." ha ha |
||
|
ProfBenTziyyon |
|||
|
Posts: 2596 (11/08/09 14:40:20) |
Alexander Pope (1688-1744) was an English poet; the line you almost quoted comes from An Essay on Criticism (1711).... A little Learning is a dang'rous Thing;The whole poem can be found at An Essay on Criticism. The line To err is Human; to Forgive − Divinecomes from the same poem. The humorous couplet You beat your pate, and fancy wit will come;is another example of Pope's wit. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Last Edited By: ProfBenTziyyon
11/08/09 15:17:08.
Edited 1 times.
|
||
|
tyolilums |
|||
|
Posts: 548 (11/12/09 11:14:22) |
Prof,
I've been playing around with that link you gave for me to search with, the Kodesh site. Of course I have trouble when there are no vowels. But that aside,
Let's see if I'm doing this right.
I only checked the box for the Tanach.
I typed in the first word of the Tanach ( בראשית). I hit the search ( חיפוש ) .. It came up six hits.
The first one I can't really read (no vowels), but I can make out Tanach and five, and there are five listed below it so I assume it's telling me there were five hits.
The second one says B'reshit p'suk 1 (the first verse in the bible). The second one is Jeremiah 26, v 1, the third one is Jeremiah 27:1, fourth one is Jeremiah 28.1, and the last one 49.34 And it provides the verse with each one.
Wow, when I do a search "In the beginning" on Christian Crosswalk I only get two hits for the NIV, Genesis 1:1 and Psalms 102:25.
For the KJV, I get a bunch of hits, Gen 1:1, Jud 7:19, Ru 1:22, 2Sam 21:9, Ezr 4:6, Pr 8:22, Jer 26:1, 27:1 a whole bunch more. But there appears to be a different word in these,or a different form, such as leaving off the 'bet'. I guess this is where knowing Hebrew is essential as you have to be familiar with all the forms of a word to search for them individually.
Thanks for linking that. I'm going to start trying to use it more. |
||
|
UriYosef |
|||
|
Posts: 2063 (11/12/09 11:26:13) Director of Education |
ty,
I am happy to see you using the actual source material... 
It really is only five hits, not six hits. The first line that is marked with a "pointer" is just the heading במאגר התנ"ך התקבלו 5 פרקים בהם הביטוי "בראשית" מופיע 5 פעמים., which tells you that in the T'nach were found 5 chapters in which the expression "בראשית" appears 5 times. Note that each actual "hit" is preceded by a line that identifies the Chapter&Verse being quoted below it. So, for example, above the first "hit" you see the line "בראשית פרק א" - Genesis Chapter 1. UriYosef
Our raison d'être:
WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
Last Edited By: UriYosef
11/12/09 11:36:00.
Edited 2 times.
|
||
|
ProfBenTziyyon |
|||
|
Posts: 2602 (11/12/09 14:34:15) |
Ty,
B'réshιt 10:10 It is also found with various conjunctive and prepositional prefixes, as follows: וְרֵאשִׁית v'réshιt − 6 cases: B'réshιt 49:3; D'varim 18:4; Y'ḥezkél 44:30 (twice); Amos 6:6; Daniyyél 11:41 Many of the other verses you reference (where KJPV says "in the beginning") use various different terms, for example: T'hillim 102:26 has לְפָנִים ("at first"); http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
||
|
Resting in Psalm 91 |
Need Help | ||
|
Posts: 1 (11/23/09 11:57:39) |
I need help, the other day a christian pointed me to Ezekiel 1:26-27. So after reading it who is the man that Ezekiel see's, cause in chapter 2 Ezekiel falls down in worship. This seems like Idolatry for Ezekiel to be worshiping a man and I don't know why it isn't addressed, because if it was addressed i'd be fine, but since it isn't I can' come up with any explanation other than this man is a God, or is God, or he isn't a man actually, i need help. |
||
|
UriYosef |
|||
|
Posts: 2075 (11/23/09 12:20:02) Director of Education |
Resting in Psalm 91 wrote:The first thing that you need is a decent translation of the Hebrew Bible by Jewish scholars, where you will see that there's nothing in Chapter 2 saying that Ezekiel "falls down in worship" - it is the last verse in Chapter 1, v. 28. Here is a good free online translation - Judaica Press Tanach. Secondly, the "a likeness like the appearance of a man" is an anthropomorphism emplyed by the prophet to portray the Divine Presence departing from the Temple in the merkavah like an earthly king in his chariot setting out on a journey. That Ezekiel saw no actual human likeness on the throne sould be obvious from the verses that follow. UriYosef
Our raison d'être:
WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!! |
||
|
Sophiee1 |
|||
|
Posts: 12931 (11/23/09 12:29:14) Moderator |
Welcome to the forum.
Always remember that Chrstians "proof text." In other words, they take a word or a sentence and lift it out of context. If you read whatever their "proof" is in context their "proofs" fall away like the lies that they are. (Often "proof texts" are based on mistranslation as well). So go back to Ezekiel 1:1. Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year in the fourth [month] on the fifth day of the month, as I was in the midst of the exile by the river Chebar-the theavens opened up, and I saw visions of G-d.The key here is "visions." Did Ezekiel ACTUALLY see G-d? No. From Rashi: visions of G-d: Heb. מַרְאוֹת. Because he did not see with a "lucid speculum," he calls it "visions of G-d," a sort of dream, insubstantial. All the prophets also saw through a "dim speculum," except for our teacher Moses. That is what is said (Hos. 12:11): "and to the prophets, I assumed likenesses."NOW read line 26: a likeness like the appearance of a man upon it above.Does it say that Ezekiel saw a man? No, it does not. It says that Ezekiel, IN HIS VISION, saw a likeness that had the appearance of a man. And line 28: 28. Like the appearance of the rainbow that is in the cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness round about; that was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of HaShem. . .Again, note the words "LIKE" (not "is") and "APPEARANCE." Nowhere does the text say Ezekiel saw G-d. Nowhere does it say G-d appeared as a man. The keys are: 1. Ezekiel has a vision. What is being discussed is not "reality." 2. HaShem is not a man [e.g., Numbers 23:19, Job 9:32]. 3. Ezekiel describes his vision of G-d's Divine Presence departing from the Temple in a Chariot, likening it to an earthly king departing on a journey in his chariot. Again the key words are "like" and "appearance." 4. Ezekiel describes his vision in human terms so that humans can understand the majesty of it all. It is G-d who address Ezekiel (a human) as "son of man." Ezekiel 2:1 And He said to me; "Son of man, stand on your feet, and I shall speak with you.""He" is G-d. The "son of man" is Ezekiel.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
Last Edited By: Sophiee1
11/23/09 12:32:04.
Edited 1 times.
|
||
|
Resting in Psalm 91 |
|||
|
Posts: 2 (11/23/09 12:34:36) |
Thank's thats helpful. I have another one I had a question about. Psalm 110 is pretty clearly talking about the coming Messiah who will judge all of
Israel's enemies and rule the World from Jerusalem. My question is in verse 7 it says "He shall drink of the brook by the wayside; Therefore He shal
lift up the head." This was another one my christian friend told me to look into. So is the Messiah God, or is He a man, or could He be both. I ask cause
most of the chapter I think portrays Him as being God, but Him drinking from the brook is very human.
|
||
|
UriYosef |
|||
|
Posts: 2076 (11/23/09 12:45:29) Director of Education |
Resting in Psalm 91 wrote:I refer you the my essay - Psalms 110 - To Not Know "the L-rd" from "my master" Can End in Disaster. That should help clear up any Christian claims that the Messiah is God. Specifically regarding v. 7, it is a metaphor. Surrounded by a multitude of corpses, he will be "drunk" with the success of victory. His thirst for revenge shall have been quenched. Victory will be achieved solely as a consequence of God's intervention and, with that thought in mind, he may proudly lift his head over the vanquished in final triumph (see also Psalms 3:4 & 27:6 [in a Jewish translation of the Hebrew Bible] regarding the "lifting of the head") UriYosef
Our raison d'être:
WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
Last Edited By: UriYosef
11/23/09 12:52:57.
Edited 2 times.
|
||
|
Sophiee1 |
|||
|
Posts: 12932 (11/23/09 13:15:47) Moderator |
Psalm 110 is not a messianic prophecy. This is a good example of the mistranslation distortions I spoke of in my previous post.
You asked about line 7, but let's start with line 1. It says that G-d is speaking to "my master" (an earthly leader, not G-d). G-d is speaking to King David. Of David a psalm. The word of HaShem to my master; "Wait for My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool at your feet."So Psalm 110 is not speaking of "the coming messiah." It is about King David. Read lines 5 & 6: HaShem, on your right hand, has crushed kings on the day of His wrath. 6 He will execute justice upon the nations [into] a heap of corpses; He crushed the head on a great land.G-d helped David defeat his enemies. None of that resembles any of the stories of Jsus, does it? Line 7 itself is a metaphor.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
|
||
|
Resting in Psalm 91 |
|||
|
Posts: 3 (11/23/09 13:25:37) |
Okay so David writes the Psalm but He just write's it in a confusing manner, it seems like King David is writing about someone else as his master, and in verse 5&6 it seems to talk about a future execution of justice upon the nations where many different nations in the world are filled with dead bodies from God's perfect Justice. |
||
|
Sophiee1 |
|||
|
Posts: 12933 (11/23/09 13:53:20) Moderator |
What makes you think David wrote Psalm 110? It is ABOUT King David.
King David wrote many, but not all, of the psalms. There is nothing confusing about Psalm 110 -- it is simply that the Chrstians have distorted it for so long that their distortion is confusing. As I explained, King David was a warrior king. G-d helped Dovid HaMelech (David the King) defeat many enemies. This is the subject of Psalm 110. You are extrapolating about future justice. It is a hymn of thanksgiving to G-d for David's many victories over his enemies.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
|
||
Quick Reply
