What happened to Dr. Brown Debate?

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Slojodan	What happened to Dr. Brown Debate?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 170 (03/30/06 00:56:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None Hey guys, I was under the impression there was going to be a written debate between the authority counter missionaries here and Dr. Brown. I heard that there would be weeks for each side to have a rebuttle too and it seemed fair. Then Dr. Brown sent a message out that the Counter missionary side had backed out because their rabbis had told them not to. Is this true? And why would the messiahtruth.com people refrain from a good debate for their cause just because a rabbi said so? --Dan
Chaim ben Yaakov	Re: What happened to Dr. Brown Debate?	#1	[-]
Posts: 3049 (03/30/06 06:44:28) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	You heard correctly. Many respected Rabbis (whether involved or not in countermissionary activity) frowned on this, as well as any other type of formal, open debate with Christians. They have several reasons why they don't like to see Jews being involved in such things, so to be respectful of their wishes, we backed out. We'll just have to counter his works with some quality essays of our own. ----------------- "He who saves one life... it is as if he saves an entire universe. He who destroys a life... it is as if he destroys an entire universe" TALMUD - Sanhedrin 4:5 -----------------
faithfulremnant	Re: What happened to Dr. Brown Debate?	#2	[-]
Posts: 598 (03/30/06 09:21:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	And you know what as a Jew, Im kinda relieved because at the end of the day nothing good would of come from it, because truly we Jews and Christians have come along way. I think its healthy to do what we do here and have strong informal debates and discussions, but to have a "clash of the titans" between a Chaim//Tovia/Uri Vs a Dr Michael Brown or someone like him, and then have the press or some group of anti semites get a hold of the discussion and twist what either side might say, it would just harm otherwise a generally happy co-existance. MY OPINION ONLY!
Jabba	Re: What happened to Dr. Brown Debate?	#3	[-]
Posts: 993 (03/30/06 10:17:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Chaim, - How does this relate to debate in general? Are you guys to eschew wrestling with Christians in general? Are the kids in college going to accept this "no contest" position? - As you can tell, I'm bumfuzzled. --- Jabba
Chaim ben Yaakov	Re: What happened to Dr. Brown Debate?	#4	[-]
Posts: 3049 (03/30/06 10:32:49) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Jabba, As it relates to formal debates with Christians, the Rabbis generally frown on them. Most say even if we win, we really lose, so there's no point. ----------------- "He who saves one life... it is as if he saves an entire universe. He who destroys a life... it is as if he destroys an entire universe" TALMUD - Sanhedrin 4:5 -----------------
Unregistered(d)	Quite disappointing	#5	[-]
Posts: 0 (03/30/06 11:46:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I mean no disrespect to anyone here but.... For those of us who were looking forward to this debate, I can't tell you how disappointing it was to hear that it was not going to happen. Especially after all the hype that was made in regards to the "superiority" of the written debate, apparently the "written" debate wasn't even good enough. I think that there should have been a little more investigation as to whether or not this type of thing was really plausible in the first place. No matter what explanation that is given it still makes you folks look bad. I highly suspect that had it been Dr. Brown that had backed out, he would have been completely lambasted on this board.
Chaim ben Yaakov	Re: Quite disappointing	#6	[-]
Posts: 3049 (03/30/06 11:51:49) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'll take the blame, then, because I thought this was something that could plausibly work. ----------------- "He who saves one life... it is as if he saves an entire universe. He who destroys a life... it is as if he destroys an entire universe" TALMUD - Sanhedrin 4:5 -----------------
UriYosef	Re: Quite disappointing	#7	[-]
Posts: 4338 (03/30/06 11:58:55) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Trav - ...apparently the "written" debate wasn't even good enough. ... No matter what explanation that is given it still makes you folks look bad. I highly suspect that had it been Dr. Brown that had backed out, he would have been completely lambasted on this board. You've got it wrong. We respect the advice and consent of our spiritual leaders. Chaim made this abundantly clear. As to your suspicion about what would have happened if the case were reversed, let me point out two things. First, all that you're doing is speculating. Secondly, let's wait and see what will be said about this by Dr. Brown (and "friends") to his followers. I think that there should have been a little more investigation as to whether or not this type of thing was really plausible in the first place. This "investigation" was going on "behind the scenes" while the idea of a debate was being discussed in the open forum. The eventual outcome of the "investigation", which included the consultation with several Rabbis, was stated by Chaim. UriYosef
Jabba	Re: Quite disappointing	#8	[-]
Posts: 993 (03/30/06 14:28:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	*Quote: Dr. Brown, in ICN Ministries newsletter* Online debate cancelled by the anti-missionaries. Earlier this month, we announced that I would be participating in an online, written debate with a team of anti-missionaries from the Messiah Truth and Jews for Judaism websites, something that I very much welcomed, always believing that if you have the truth, you will bring everything into the light. I'm sorry to announce now that the online debate has been called off by the five-member anti-missionary team at the strong recommendation of their rabbis, despite the eagerness of the anti-missionaries to proceed with it. I respect their wishes and have released them from their challenge to me have this open debate, but I want to reiterate that I was totally willing to debate and discuss the issues surrounding the Messiahship of Yeshua/Jesus in this online format. In fact, I have been willing to openly discuss these issues for more than thirty years now and I continue to extend an invitation to any qualified rabbi, Jewish professor, or anti-missionary to have such an open, equal time, scriptural dialogue and debate with me for the sake of the truth. Those who profess Jesus as Messiah and Lord have nothing to fear and nothing to hide.
TheFiddler2005	Re: Quite disappointing	#9	[-]
Posts: 870 (03/30/06 14:39:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	There is history to remember as well in regard to "debates" with Christians. I am also curious at to what is spoken about this from Dr. Brown with others--namely public statements. As I previously share on this thread: p069.ezboard.com/fmessiah...2017.topic *Quote:* But, there is a bad feeling I get when it comes to debates or discussions between Jews and Christians for the sole purpose of "truth". There was a time with Religious Disputations were a common event. The medieval Christian Church called such debates "Tournaments for God and Faith". The outcome was against the Jews and the results affected their freedom to practice Judaism. Often times, these disputations were done front of the kings. {I feel the common theme now is to do disputations for the sake of money. But, that's just my view!} In 1240, as a result of one of these Religious Disputations, the Talmud was declared evil and it was ordered to be burned. It was the king of France who ordered this debate with his "champion" being Nicolas Donin, an apostate Jew. Donin debated four Jewish rabbis. Also, Nicolas Donin convinced Pope Gregory IX to issue a decree for the burning of the Talmud everywhere {not just France}. Also, part of this decree was the establishment of inquistions and cenors over all Jewish writings {not just the Talmud}. The main results of these Religious Disputations were the public declarations that Jews were ignorant. The Jews were declared "ignorant losers" by the Pope! Pope Benedict was the one who did this and also ordered that all Jews had to accept baptism. Jews refused, of course. Therefore, Pope Benedict declared a ban on the study of the Talmud by Jews; period. Be well, Gretta
UriYosef	Re: Quite disappointing	#10	[-]
Posts: 4338 (03/31/06 00:36:33) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Jabba - Thanks for posting the piece from the newsletter. I don't know if anyone took note of this statement by Dr. Brown: ... a team of anti-missionaries from the Messiah Truth and Jews for Judaism websites ... Whether or not this was done by design I cannot say, but notice the ambiguity here. I can imagine that most of those who will read the statement will jump to the (false) conclusion that the Messiah Truth and Jews for Judaism organizations backed out of the debates. Nothing could be further from the truth. Personally, I would have preferred to see a more precise statement from Dr. Brown, in which he would have made it clear that the people who originally were going to debate him were participants on the Messiah Truth and Jews for Judaism discussion boards and not necessarily affiliated with, nor representing, the two organizations. So, I would like to state right here, and make it abundantly clear, that the "team" of counter-missionaries who originally had an interest in debating Dr. Brown were not officially representing either organization - not the Messiah Truth Project nor Jews for Judaism. UriYosef
dust of the earth	Re: Quite disappointing	#11	[-]
Posts: 750 (03/31/06 01:29:28) Banned User Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Uri, to be intellectually honest, I see the following excerpt as being the portion of Dr. Browns statement, which is most telling, and deserves highlighting..... *Quote:* if you have the truth, you will bring everything into the light. Don't you agree?
UriYosef	Re: Quite disappointing	#12	[-]
Posts: 4338 (03/31/06 02:05:29) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	DOTE - Don't you agree? It's a nice "slogan". I think the implication behind that slogan perhaps deserves the highlighting. UriYosef
Want2Learn	Re: Quite disappointing	#13	[-]
Posts: 28 (03/31/06 03:48:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This certainly doesn't help the anti-missionary position. Listening to your teachers has greater value, even if frustrating. The only thing I find curious, is if Rabbis have debated him before, then why isn't it permissible now? There's a thread right next to this one with such a topic as a Rabbi debating him. I only ask this question in pure honesty.
Chaim ben Yaakov	Re: Quite disappointing	#14	[-]
Posts: 3049 (03/31/06 05:45:10) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	DOTE- There are other, better ways of bringing 'truth to light' than in formal debates. Writing essays can be just as effective. I'm working on one now about sin/atonement/repentance/righteousness, and it's what I wanted to use 1st on Mike Brown. You're starting to see a glimpse of it in my posts here the past 3-4 days on the topic(s) just mentioned. WANT2LEARN- Not all Rabbis are 'on board' with other Rabbis who decide to debate. I'd say most are not. ----------------- "He who saves one life... it is as if he saves an entire universe. He who destroys a life... it is as if he destroys an entire universe" TALMUD - Sanhedrin 4:5 -----------------
TheFiddler2005	What Round?	#15	[-]
Posts: 870 (03/31/06 07:07:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Uri, There's something about Brown's whole statement that was posted here that bothers me. That last line is the finishing touch to it.--Like Jews have something to hide? The statement sort of implies that.-- All in all, it kind of reminds me of a rally talk before a boxing match--just not as violent. Be well, Gretta
Jabba	Re: Quite disappointing	#16	[-]
Posts: 993 (03/31/06 08:25:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	*Quote: Chaim* There are other, better ways of bringing 'truth to light' than in formal debates. Writing essays can be just as effective. Chaim, - Unfortunately, this is where I think you're wrong. In my opininion, you were doing the absolutely right thing pressing for that debate, and I'm really sorry that it isn't working out. - "The First To Plead His Cause Seems Just, Until Another Comes And Examines Him." Proverbs 18:17 - I have one of Dr Brown's books on "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus," and I know that you have answers to each of his answers... - But then, he probably has answers to your answers. - Etc, etc... - For those of us trying feebly but desperately to come to honest conclusions, both sides of the whole story need to be heard -- otherwise, we're back at Proverbs 18:17, waiting for the next shoe to fall. --- Jabba
Jabba	Re: Quite disappointing	#17	[-]
Posts: 993 (03/31/06 08:41:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	- I'm a really big fan of written debate. I predict that if the human race can live so long, written debate will become the method of choice for resolving controversial issues -- and more, it will actually be effective, and it will revolutionize the world... Our critical decisions in life will be much more founded and functional. - I make such fanatic claims because debate has never been "scientized." So far, human debate hardly ever rises above a street brawl, when it could be so much more. - Breakfast calls, but I'll be back. --- Jabba
Jabba	Re: Quite disappointing	#18	[-]
Posts: 993 (03/31/06 10:20:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	- Somehow, one of my posts got lost. Unfortunately, as usual, I didn't think to keep a backup copy... - Something like the following should have appeared prior to my previous post: - IMHO, Chaim is wrong to believe that essays are just as good as written debate -- but that he was absolutely right in pressing for that debate. - I base my belief on Proverbs 18:17, "The First To Plead His Cause Seems Just, Until Another Comes And Examines Him," and - Proverbs 15:18, "A wrathful man stirs up strife, but he who is slow to anger allays contention." - I have one of Dr Brown's books on "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus," and I know that Chaim has answers to all of Dr Brown's answers... - But then, I suspect that Dr Brown has answers to Chaim's answers. - Etc, etc... - What we need in order to expose the whole truth in any controversy is both sides of the whole story. In other words, what we need is friendly and meticulous written debate -- which so far, doesn't exist. - IMHO, Chaim could have become the modern day Neil Armstrong. Maybe, the Rabbis will change their minds... --- Jabba
Mattisyahu	Re: Quite disappointing	#19	[-]
Posts: 599 (03/31/06 11:27:06) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I encourage you to listen to the debate of Rabbi Shochet vs. Rabbi Brown that you can find on Dr. Brown's "Real Messiah" website (although unfortunately, the debate is not complete here). In it, Rabbi Shochet explains why he would rather not debate. It's interesting that at the end of the day, Rabbi Shochet and Rabbi Brown did agree that the only way to determine the truth is to sit down and study the texts with an open mind. There are other Rabbis, for instance Rabbi Tovia Singer, who don't mind debating.
Slojodan	Re: Quite disappointing	#20	[-]
Posts: 170 (03/31/06 19:22:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Well I am disappointed that the debate is not going to happen, and even more disappointed to hear correctly the reason for it. With all do respect, who cares what your rabbis think? I mean, they are not prophets, and they can't even agree with each other. The talmud is full of varying opinions. Plenty of rabbis agree with debating missionaries, including the ones who have already debated Dr. Brown. Though curiously none make their debates available after it happens. It's sad to say, but unless there's some real solid torah/talmudic evidence to back up their recommendation, it sounds like the rabbis were just concerned that Jews would be influenced by the debate. They have no problem with you going back and forth with Dougg or anyone else, but once it's someone like Dr. Brown, it's a big issue. Dr. Brown is the single strongest player in apologetics so I can see why they'd be worried. He's not as famous as say Josh McDowell, but he's the only evangelist/apologist that doesn't say things that would get laughed out of a secular university, such as "prophetic year" nonsense, or almah meaning virgin. Why not have the guts to actually go toe to toe with him and let the rabbis respectfully disagree with you? They won't disown you for not doing what they said. It's such a cop out, and it's embarassing. This isn't a retraction, it's a forfeit.

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