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Wed, 12-Dec-07 11:05:44
Quote: Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the L-RD for Israel, saith the L-RD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. [2] Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. (KJV)
Quote: Zechariah 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. [4] In that day, saith the L-RD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. [5] And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the L-RD of hosts their G-d. [6] In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. (KJV)
Quote: Zechariah 12:7 The L-RD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. [8] In that day shall the L-RD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as G-d, as the angel of the L-RD before them. [9] And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Quote: Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. [11] In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. [12] And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; [13] The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; [14] All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Quote: Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (KJV)
Quote: John 19:37 And again another *****ure saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Quote: John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (KJV)
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Wed, 12-Dec-07 12:00:20
Wed, 12-Dec-07 12:15:28
Quote:ANALYSIS OF ZECHARIAH 12:1010. "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, and they will look onto Me whom (et asher) they have pierced and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep for Him like the weeping over a first born. 11. In that day there will be a great mourning in Jerusalem like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12. and the land will mourn every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself; and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself; and their wives by themselves..."The Chrstian reading of this passage is somewhat problematic. The words "Me" and "Him" makes it quite obvious that the text is speaking of two different subjects. The gospel of John acknowledged this and therefore rendered the passage as, "they shall look on Him whom they pierced." This New Testament mistranslation of Zechariah in and of itself demonstrates that the New Testament is fallacious.To interpret this passage that at some future time the "Jewish people shall look unto Me (G-d/Jsus) whom they (the Jewish people) pierced" does not seem to be what John had in mind. It is important to note that according to John, Zechariah's prophesy was fulfilled at the time that the Roman soldiers pierced the side of Jesus. As it says in John 19:36, "For these things came to pass that the scrip-ture might be fulfilled."John saw the two different subjects of Zechariah's passage as the Roman soldiers and Jsus."They (the Roman soldiers) shall look on Him (Jsus) whom they (the Roman soldiers) pierced.There is an additional problem in this passage. The Hebrew words "et asher" are not found very often in scrip-ture. When they do occur together the phrase is read as "concerning whom" or "concerning that" but never as "whom". You can see this by reading the Hebrew original of Ezekiel 36:27. (It is also interesting to note that the Septuagint does not translate "et asher" as "whom." Its translation does not at all resemble the Chrstian interpretation.) The correct translation of Zechariah 12:10 should be."they will look onto Me concerning whom they have pierced and they will mourn for him" This is consistent with the two subjects. By reviewing the context we can also understand of whom this passage is speaking. Starting with the beginning of Zechariah chapter 12 the prophet speaks of a time when the nations of the world will be gathered against Jerusalem to destroy it (Zec 12:3). On that day, G-d Himself will defend Jerusalem and destroy all of its enemies (Zec 12:4-9). G-d will pour out a spirit of grace and supplication toward the Jews. Grace is requested from G-d and supplication are directed to G-d. This new spirit will motivate the Jewish nation to look towards G-d concerning those Jews (collective Jewish Martyrs) (see Hosea 11:1 for the Jewish people described as him. See Ex.1 etc. verbs of oppression in singular. Cf. Deut 32, Hos 8:3 and Ex. 19:2) who have been killed in battle prior to G-d's divine intervention in fighting our adversaries. All the inhabitants of Jerusalem will mourn. This has obviously not yet been fulfilled, now or when the Roman soldier looked at Jsus.This understanding is validated by the scrip-tural descrip-tion that this mourning in Jerusalem would be "like the mourning of Hadadrimmom in the Valley of Magiddo." This refers to the death of King Josiah who was killed in battle with Pharaoh Neco (2 Kings 23:29-30). After his death all of Judah and Jerusalem mourned for him (2 Chron 35:22-25). In the same way that the Jews mourned over King Josiah who died in battle so too will the Jewish people in the future mourn over their war dead.
Wed, 12-Dec-07 16:26:57
Wed, 12-Dec-07 17:00:26
Quote:John, in John 19:37, established that Jesus was pierced. So that when Zechariah 12:10 happens, then it ties the crucifixion of Jesus when he was pierced, as being the same Jesus who will return in Revelation 1:17.
Posts: 1507
Wed, 12-Dec-07 19:59:36
Quote:1. The prophecy of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Says the Lord, Who stretches out the heavens and founds the earth and forms the spirit of man within him:2. Behold! I am making Jerusalem a cup of weakness for all the peoples around, and also on Judah, [that he] shall be in the siege against Jerusalem.3. And it shall come to pass on that day that I will make Jerusalem a stone of burden for all peoples; all who bear it shall be gashed, and all the nations of the earth shall gather about it.4. On that day, says the Lord, I will smite every horse with bewilderment, and its rider with madness. And upon the house of Judah I will open My eyes, and all the horses of the peoples I will smite with blindness.5. And the princes of Judah shall say to themselves, "The inhabitants of Jerusalem were my strength through the Lord of Hosts, their God."6. On that day I will make the princes of Judah as a fiery stove among wood, and as a brand of fire among sheaves. And they shall consume on the right and on the left all the nations round about, and Jerusalem shall still stay in its place in Jerusalem.7. And the Lord shall first save the tents of Judah, so that the boasting of the house of David and the boasting of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not increase over Judah.8. On that day the Lord shall protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the weakest of them shall be, on that day, like David. And the house of David shall be like angels, like the angel of the Lord before them.9. And it shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come upon Jerusalem.10. And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.11. On that day there shall be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddon.12. And the land shall mourn, every family apart: The family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart.13. The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of the Shimeites apart, and their wives apart.14. All the remaining families-every family apart, and their wives apart.
Quote:On that day, a spring shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for purification and for sprinkling.2. And it shall come to pass on that day, says the Lord of Hosts: I will cut off the names of the idols from the earth, and they shall no longer be mentioned. And also the prophets and the spirit of contamination I will remove from the earth.3. And it shall come to pass, if a man still prophesies, that his father and his mother-his parents-shall say to him, "You shall not live, for you have spoken falsely in the name of the Lord." And his father and his mother-his parents-shall thrust him through because of his prophesying.4. And it shall come to pass on that day that the prophets shall be ashamed, each one of his vision when he prophesies; and they will not wear a hairy mantle in order to lie.5. And he shall say, "I am not a prophet! I am a tiller of the soil, for a man entrusted me with his cattle from my youth."6. And one will say to him, "What are these wounds between your hands?" And he shall say, "That I was smitten in the house of my friends."7. O sword, awaken against My shepherd and against the man who is associated with Me! says the Lord of Hosts. Smite the shepherd, and the flock shall scatter, and I will return My hand upon the little ones.8. And it shall come to pass throughout all the land, says the Lord, two parts of it shall be cut off. They shall perish, and the third shall remain therein.9. And I will bring the third in fire; and I will refine them as one refines silver, and I will test them as one tests gold. He shall call in My name, and I will respond to him. I said, "He is My people"; and he shall say, "The Lord is my God."
Quote:a spirit of grace and supplications That it should come into their mind to supplicate Me, and they will be in My good graces.[b]a spirit:[/b] Talant in Old French, a desire.[b]they shall look to Me because of those who have been thrust through[/b] Jonathan renders: And they shall supplicate Me because of their wanderings. And they shall look to Me to complain about those of them whom the nations thrust through and slew during their exile.and they shall mourn over it]Over that slaughter.[b]as one mourns over an only son:[/b] As a man mourns over his only son. And our Sages expounded this in tractate Sukkah (52a) as referring to the Messiah, son of Joseph, who was slain.[b]like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddon[/b] Hadadrimmon has no connection to the Valley of Megiddon. These are, rather, two cases of mourning. [The first is] like the mourning of Ahab the son of Omri, who was slain by Hadadrimmon the son of Tabrimmon in Ramoth Gilead, as it is stated (I Kings 22:36): A cry passed through the camp. That is the mourning [of Ahab. The second case is] like the mourning of Josiah the son of Amon, who was slain by Pharoah the lame in the Valley of Megiddon, as it is stated (II Chron. 35:25): And Jeremiah lamented for Josiah, and all the singing men and singing women spoke in their laments, etc.
Wed, 12-Dec-07 23:04:42
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