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Mon, 12-Aug-13 11:48:41
Tags : totally, simple, person, attributes
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Mon, 12-Aug-13 13:25:43
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Mon, 12-Aug-13 15:41:23
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Proteus wrote:Is G-d a person?
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Mon, 12-Aug-13 16:43:55
Posts: 777
Tue, 13-Aug-13 07:05:53
Tue, 13-Aug-13 10:16:23
God is Simple. Catholic Teaching: God is not composed or divisible by any physical or metaphysical means. Simplicity of God refers to the fact that he has no parts.
Tue, 13-Aug-13 18:42:40
Proteus wrote:Maybe I should have first asked instead, "Is G-d personal?"Is G-d more a Who, or a What?To whom or to what does one pray? Does G-d hear? listen? answer?Does G-d have a mind? Does G-d think? Does G-d have emotions, will, intention?OK, I guess that's all I can get to for the moment.
Tue, 13-Aug-13 20:36:23
Proteus wrote:I just want to iron out as many details as we can.
Proteus wrote:Maybe I should have first asked instead, "Is G-d personal?"
Proteus wrote:Is G-d more a Who, or a What?
Exodus 3:14(JPT) - God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"
Proteus wrote:To whom or to what does one pray? Does G-d hear? listen? answer?
1Kings 8:28-29(JPT) - (28) And You shall turn toward Your servant's prayer and to his supplication, O Lord my God: to hearken to the song and to the prayer that Your servant is praying before You today. (29) That Your eyes may be open toward this house night and day, toward the place which You said, 'My Name will be there;' to listen to the prayer that Your servant will pray toward this place.
Psalms 65:3(JPT) - You, Who hearken to prayer, to You all flesh shall come.
2Chronicles 7:15(JPT) - Now, My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to the prayer of this place.
Psalms 99:8(JPT) - O Lord, Our God, You answered them; You were a forgiving God for them but vengeful for their misdeeds.
Psalms 102:18(JPT) - He has turned to the prayer of those who cried out, and He did not despise their prayer.
Psalms 118:21(JPT) - I shall thank You because You answered me, and You were my salvation.
Proteus wrote:Does G-d have a mind? Does G-d think? Does G-d have emotions, will, intention?
Exodus 34:6-7(JPT) - (6) And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed: Lord, Lord, benevolent God, Who is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving kindness and truth, (7) preserving loving kindness for thousands, forgiving iniquity and rebellion and sin; yet He does not completely clear [of sin] He visits the iniquity of parents on children and children's children, to the third and fourth generations."
Micah 4:12(JPT) - But they did not know the thoughts of the Lord; neither did they understand His counsel, for He gathered them as sheaves to a threshing floor.
Psalms 92:6(JPT) - How great are Your works, O Lord! Your thoughts are very deep.
Psalms 40:9(JPT) - O God, I desired to do Your will and [to have] Your law within my innards.
Psalms 51:20(JPT) - With Your will, do good to Zion; build the walls of Jerusalem.
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Wed, 14-Aug-13 08:58:58
Wed, 14-Aug-13 10:53:57
Wed, 14-Aug-13 11:55:40
UriYosef wrote: Just don't forget that these are all "human terms" - the Bible is written in a language that humans are able to understand.
UriYosef wrote: God is God.
This error is not insignificant. In fact, according to the Rambam, a person who harbors such a belief is a min (heretic) and has no portion in the World to Come. The Rambam even goes so far as to equate belief in Hashem's attributes with belief in the Christian doctrine of the trinity (Guide for the Perplexed 1:53):
If, however, someone believes that He is one, but possesses a certain number of essential attributes, he says in his words that He is one, but believes Him in his thought to be many. This resembles what the Christians say: namely, that He is one, but also three, and that the three are one. Similar to this is the assertion of him who says that He is one but possesses many attributes and that He and His attributes are one.
One who approaches G-d with such a notion of His middos ha'rachamim will not only fail to obtain His mercy, but will be the object of His wrath. Therefore, before we review the correct idea of the yud gimmel middos ha'rachamim, we must fully uproot the incorrect idea and understand why it is incorrect.
The Incorrect Idea
According to the Rambam's formulation, the second fundamental principle of the Torah is Hashem's Oneness (Commentary to Perek Chelek):
The Second Fundamental Principle is His Oneness, may He be exalted. Namely, that this Cause of everything is One, not like the oneness of a species and not like the oneness of a class, and not like one unified composite, which can be divided into many unities, and not one like a simple body, which is one in number but is subject to division and subdivision ad infinitum, but He, may He be exalted, is One – a Oneness unlike any other oneness in any way.
Hashem is One; He is utterly devoid of any plurality whatsoever. Anything which has attributes partakes of plurality and is therefore not absolutely one. For instance, a red ball is not one because it has many attributes: color, weight, size, location, temperature, sphericity, and so on. If Hashem had an attribute or attributes of mercy, He would partake of plurality, and would therefore not be Absolutely One. It is impossible to believe "Hashem Echad" as defined by the Torah and to simultaneously believe that Hashem has an attribute or attributes of mercy.
Furthermore, the prophet states:
"To whom can you compare Me that I should Be similar?" (Yeshaya 4:25)
Lastly, it is important to recognize that Hashem has no emotions. This somehow seems to escape the attention of many people, even though it follows from what has been said above. Humans have a natural tendency to ascribe human qualities and emotions to G-d. Indeed, pagan gods are nothing more than imagined beings with the same feelings and characteristics of the people who worship them. We must be very careful not to project our own qualities onto Hashem, as the prophet admonishes:
"The Children of Israel ascribed things that were not so to Hashem their G-d" (Melachim II 17:9).
"I am Hashem, I do not change" (Malachi 3:6).
Wed, 14-Aug-13 12:18:24
Wed, 14-Aug-13 12:19:53
Wed, 14-Aug-13 12:28:02
Wed, 14-Aug-13 20:32:54
Proteus wrote:Uri, thank you for that detailed response. I'm sure I'll have more questions once I've got this much digested. Could you say more about the Thirteen Attributes; as, if I'm not mistaken, I've been told that G-d has no attributes.
Exodus 34:5-7(Soncino) - (5) And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. (6) And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed: 'The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering and abundant in goodness and truth; (7) keeping mercy unto the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin; and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and unto the fourth generation.'
5-7. The Revelation of God's Nature in the Thirteen Attributes God's 'ways' are now proclaimed unto Moses in the thirteen characteristic qualities of the Divine Nature, enumerated in v.6 and 7. Judaism has been very chary of definitions of God. He is the En sof, the Infinite, the Undefinable. However, the Thirteen Atteibutes give us a definition of God in ethical terms. All schools of Jewish thought agree that these momentous and sublime attributes enshrine some of the most distinctive doctrines of Judaism. The Rabbis made v. 6 and 7, containing the Thirteen Attributes of Divine Mercy, the dominant refrain in all prayers of repentance. 5. stood. The subject is 'the Lord' (Ibn Ezra, Nachmanides). 6. proclaimed. God reveals the 'name of the Lord', i.e. His characteristic qualities, to Moses. The Rabbis held that there are thirteen distinct attributes in these two verses; thigh there are differences as to their precise enumeration. The enumeration in the following comments in in accordance with the views of Rabbeinu Tam, Ibn Ezra, Mendelsohn and Reggio. the Lord, the Lord. Heb. Adonay, Adonay (i and ii). Adonay denotes God in His attribute of mercy; and the repetition is explained in the Talmud as meaning, 'I am the merciful God before a man commits a sin, and I am the same merciful and forgiving God after a man has sinned. Whatever change has to be wrought, must be in the heart of the sinner; not in the nature of the Deity. He is the same after a man has sinned, as He was before a man has sinned.' God. Heb. el (iii). The all-mighty Lord of the Universe, Ruler of Nature and mankind. merciful. Heb. rachum (iv); full of affectionate sympathy for the sufferings and miseries of human frailty. and gracious. Heb. ve'channun (v); assisting and helping; consoling the afflicted and raising up the oppressed. 'In man these two qualities manifest themselves fitfully and temporarily; מרחם וחונן. It is otherwise with God: in Him, compassion and grace are permanent, inherent and necessary emanations of His nature. Hence, He alone can be spoken of as rachum ve-channun' (Mendelsohn). long-suffering. Or, 'slow to anger.' Heb. erech appayim (vi); not hastening to punish the sinner, but affording him opportunities to retrace his evel courses. abundant in goodness. Or plenteous in mercy. Heb. rav chesed (vii); granting His gifts and blessings beyond the deserts of man. and truth. Heb. ve'emet (viii); eternally true to Himself, pursuing His inscrutable plans for the salvation of mankind, and rewarding those who are obedient to His will. Note that 'chesed', lovingkindness, precedes 'emet,' truth, both here and generally throughout Scripture; as if to say, 'Speak the truth by all means; but be quite sure that you speak the truth in love.' 7. keeping mercy unto the thousandth generation. Heb. notzer chesed la'alafim (ix). Remembering the good deeds of the ancestors to the thousandth generation, and reserving reward and recompense to the remotest descendants. forgiving iniquity. Heb. noseh avon (x); bearing with indulgence the failings of man, and by forgiveness restoring him to the original purity of his soul. The Heb. for 'iniquity' is avon; sins committed from evil disposition. transgression. Heb. pesha (xi); evil deeds springing from malice and rebellion against the Divine. sin. Heb. chattaah (xii); shortcomings due to heedlessness and error. will by no means clear the guilty. i.e. He will not allow the guilty to pass unpunished. Heb. venakkeh lo yenakkeh (xiii). The Rabbis explain: venakkeh 'acquitting--the penitent; lo yenakkeh, but not acquitting--the impenitent.' He is merciful and gracious and forgiving; but He will never obliterate the eternal and unbridgeable distinction between light and darkness, between good and evil. God cannot leave repeated wickedness and obstinate persistence in evil entirely unpunished. His goodness cannot destroy His justice. The unfailing and impartial consequences of sin help man to perceive that there is no 'chance' in morals. The punishments of sin are thus no vindictive, but remedial. visiting ... upon the children. See xx, 5. This law relates only to consequences of sin. Pardon is not the remission of the penalty, but the forgiveness of the guilt and the removal of the sinfulness. The misdeeds of those who are God's enemies are visited only to the third and fourth generation, whereas His mercy to those who love Him is unto a thousand generations.
Thu, 15-Aug-13 10:07:23
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