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Posts: 1507
Tue, 17-Sep-13 10:51:03
You seem to feel secure in the knowledge that the prophets "provided guidance on how Judaism could survive without a Temple", but for the average person, it's just one of those don't-ask-don't-tell subjects. They don't know or care what the issue or solution really s; they just know it doesn't involve Jesus.
But look - if I hear a report of a spectacular verifiable miracle - like Jesus coming with the clouds of heaven, as he said he would - I might come and find you. You say it wouldn't convince you, because of all you know about Hebrew scripture, but I'd be interested in seeing your response just the same.
Posts: 20703
Tue, 17-Sep-13 11:05:54
Moderator
Arikm7 wrote:To have a intimate relationship with G-d, you have to have an intimate and deep relationship with the Tanakh and all that G-d gave to the Jewish people both at Sinai and ongoing through the ages.
Posts: 7963
Tue, 17-Sep-13 13:56:11
Sophiee1 wrote:It is well and good to tell someone you "love them" (G-d or a spouse) but if one never SHOWS that love by doing little things for that entity known to please that entity -- where is the love?
“It is no longer necessary to obey God’s laws,” christians tell us, “you only have to ‘love’ Him.” But they never specify how one is supposed to show this “love” for God. The Tōrah, however, does tell us how we are to “love” God—“So now, Yĭssra'él—what does Adōnai your God want from you? only this: to respect Adōnai your God by following all His ways and to love and serve Adōnai your God with all your heart and all your being by keeping Adōnai’s commandments and laws that I am commanding you today . . .” (D'varĭm 10:12-13)
“So now, Yĭssra'él—what does Adōnai your God want from you? only this: to respect Adōnai your God by following all His ways and to love and serve Adōnai your God with all your heart and all your being by keeping Adōnai’s commandments and laws that I am commanding you today . . .” (D'varĭm 10:12-13)
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Tue, 17-Sep-13 17:02:06
Tue, 17-Sep-13 23:53:42
Sophiee1 wrote:Beautifully put Mordochai.
Wed, 18-Sep-13 07:12:11
ProfBenTziyyon wrote:Sophiee1 wrote:Beautifully put Mordochai.Just quoting from the Tōrah.
Wed, 18-Sep-13 09:18:56
Sophiee1 wrote:Take credit where credit is due -- you knew enough to find the applicable passage.
Posts: 1781
Wed, 18-Sep-13 09:50:33
ProfBenTziyyon wrote:“It is no longer necessary to obey God’s laws,” christians tell us, “you only have to ‘love’ Him.” But they never specify how one is supposed to show this “love” for God.
Posts: 4849
Wed, 18-Sep-13 11:01:15
Administrator
mark wrote:Christian scripture makes this very clear:In John 14:15, Jesus says, "If you love me, you will keep my commands." In Matthew 5:19 he says, "Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." In James 2:26, James says, "faith without works is dead". In Ephesians 2:10, Paul says, "For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
mark wrote:Of course, Christian scripture also says that this does not mean that Gentiles are expected to keep Jewish law, or try to convert. Acts 15:19 and 1Corinthians 7:18 say this very explicitly.On the other hand, and I think this is really the point where we disagree, Christian scripture also says that we cannot be justified (made righteous) by our attempts to keep the law, since nobody can do that perfectly.
Deuteronomy 30:11-14(JPT) -11. For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away. יא. כִּי הַמִּצְוָה הַזֹּאת אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוְּךָ הַיּוֹם לֹא נִפְלֵאת הִוא מִמְּךָ וְלֹא רְחֹקָה הִוא 12. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" יב. לֹא בַשָּׁמַיִם הִוא לֵאמֹר מִי יַעֲלֶה לָּנוּ הַשָּׁמַיְמָה וְיִקָּחֶהָ לָּנוּ וְיַשְׁמִעֵנוּ אֹתָהּ וְנַעֲשֶׂנָּה 13. Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" יג. וְלֹא מֵעֵבֶר לַיָּם הִוא לֵאמֹר מִי יַעֲבָר לָנוּ אֶל עֵבֶר הַיָּם וְיִקָּחֶהָ לָּנוּ וְיַשְׁמִעֵנוּ אֹתָהּ וְנַעֲשֶׂנָּה 14. Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it. יד. כִּי קָרוֹב אֵלֶיךָ הַדָּבָר מְאֹד בְּפִיךָ וּבִלְבָבְךָ לַעֲשׂתוֹ
Wed, 18-Sep-13 11:13:58
Thu, 19-Sep-13 07:26:26
UriYosef wrote:I see the word "love" only in your first citation.
UriYosef wrote:BTW, it is my understanding that those "commands" are not the 613 in the Torah, which invalidates the idea of showing one's love to the Creator.
UriYosef wrote:Mark, You boast about all the years that you've spent on these forums and claim how much you have learnt, yet you still spout this gibberish? What Christian scripture says is completely the opposite of what the Hebrew Bible teaches.
For there is no righteous man on earth who does good and sins not. (Ecclesiastes 7:20)
Sat, 21-Sep-13 19:02:44
mark wrote:What I should have said is:For there is no righteous man on earth who does good and sins not. (Ecclesiastes 7:20)
"He who walks in innocence is righteous, fortunate are his sons after him."
Sat, 21-Sep-13 20:53:13
“there is no man in the World who is so perfect that he does only what is right and never sins even once”
Sun, 22-Sep-13 00:31:11
Sun, 22-Sep-13 19:09:54
Arikm7 wrote:We are not a captive audience.
Posts: 108
Sun, 22-Sep-13 20:09:53
Mon, 23-Sep-13 16:29:47
Sophiee1 wrote:The key to that quote being that even a sinner can be righteous
ProfBenTziyyon wrote:I am waiting with bated breath to see how you respond to the question posed by the Administrator in the last paragraph of Reply #189 (if you ever bother to respond to it, which seems rather unlikely considering the contempt you normally treat most questions that are put to you with).
UriYosef wrote:Do you really believe that the God of Israel, the Creator, is so mean-spirited that He would give us a set of commands knowing from the start that they cannot be kept, yet have the audacity to tell us that we are to keep them?
Arikm7 wrote:I'm still waiting Mark to answer the questions I also posited to him.
Arikm7 wrote:So the REAL question you need to ask yourself is: When G-d vindicates the Jewish People and His Name and all that was said by Him and observed by Jews throughout milenia is shown to be right, correct, holy, nobel, exalted, pure, everlasting and absolute, what will be YOUR response when the faith that held G-d's truth isn't xianity?
Arikm7 wrote:More pointedly: What will be your response when the real messiah comes and ushers in the total return to the G-d of Israel and his name and identity is NOT Jeesus?
yhayyim wrote:It's the Roman church that desperately needs to strawman the "perfection" in keeping Torah requirements
Mon, 23-Sep-13 18:11:24
mark wrote:. . .it was not the Roman Catholic church who first expressed this view [that “perfection” is required in Tōrah observance], but J-sus himself (Matthew 5:38), and then Paul (Romans 3:23).
Tue, 24-Sep-13 07:11:49
mark wrote:. . . we cannot be justified (made righteous) by our attempts to keep the law . . .
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
1. to show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right [example: The end does not always justify the means]; or2. to defend or uphold as warranted or well-grounded [example: Don’t try to justify his rudeness].
Posts: 216
Tue, 24-Sep-13 08:16:29
UriYosef wrote:Deuteronomy 30:11-14(JPT) -11. For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away. יא. כִּי הַמִּצְוָה הַזֹּאת אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוְּךָ הַיּוֹם לֹא נִפְלֵאת הִוא מִמְּךָ וְלֹא רְחֹקָה הִוא 12. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" יב. לֹא בַשָּׁמַיִם הִוא לֵאמֹר מִי יַעֲלֶה לָּנוּ הַשָּׁמַיְמָה וְיִקָּחֶהָ לָּנוּ וְיַשְׁמִעֵנוּ אֹתָהּ וְנַעֲשֶׂנָּה 13. Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" יג. וְלֹא מֵעֵבֶר לַיָּם הִוא לֵאמֹר מִי יַעֲבָר לָנוּ אֶל עֵבֶר הַיָּם וְיִקָּחֶהָ לָּנוּ וְיַשְׁמִעֵנוּ אֹתָהּ וְנַעֲשֶׂנָּה 14. Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it. יד. כִּי קָרוֹב אֵלֶיךָ הַדָּבָר מְאֹד בְּפִיךָ וּבִלְבָבְךָ לַעֲשׂתוֹDo you really believe that the God of Israel, the Creator, is so mean-spirited that He would give us a set of commands knowing from the start that they cannot be kept, yet have the audacity to tell us that we are to keep them? How many times must it be shown and explained to you, from the Torah itself, that what you wrote is utter nonsense?UriYosef
11. For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away. יא. כִּי הַמִּצְוָה הַזֹּאת אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוְּךָ הַיּוֹם לֹא נִפְלֵאת הִוא מִמְּךָ וְלֹא רְחֹקָה הִוא 12. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" יב. לֹא בַשָּׁמַיִם הִוא לֵאמֹר מִי יַעֲלֶה לָּנוּ הַשָּׁמַיְמָה וְיִקָּחֶהָ לָּנוּ וְיַשְׁמִעֵנוּ אֹתָהּ וְנַעֲשֶׂנָּה 13. Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" יג. וְלֹא מֵעֵבֶר לַיָּם הִוא לֵאמֹר מִי יַעֲבָר לָנוּ אֶל עֵבֶר הַיָּם וְיִקָּחֶהָ לָּנוּ וְיַשְׁמִעֵנוּ אֹתָהּ וְנַעֲשֶׂנָּה 14. Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it. יד. כִּי קָרוֹב אֵלֶיךָ הַדָּבָר מְאֹד בְּפִיךָ וּבִלְבָבְךָ לַעֲשׂתוֹ
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