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Posts: 1781
Thu, 22-Aug-13 21:50:58
SearchinMyRoots wrote:There are many people who claim to have had a "supernatural" experience. Who do we believe?
Arikm7 wrote:EVERY religion trumps a mystical element.
Posts: 20703
Fri, 23-Aug-13 06:02:07
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"their newfound religion had transformed their lives. They joyfully spoke of their joining this eastern sect and I could sense the elation and inner peace they felt. They were certain that what they believed was true and it was quite apparent that they were more spiritual now than they had ever been in their former lives. . ."Although each of these extraordinary stories may appear to the novice as evidence of the validity of their newly acquired faith, the fact remains that these variant religions cannot all be valid. When it comes to spiritual experiences and miraculous occurrences, things get very messy. The realm of faith would be very tidy if only one religion produced life-altering transformations and miraculous occurrences. To the dismay of the fervid believer, however, this may be the most disorganized arena of organized religion. In fact. . .life-changing experience. . . is a universal phenomenon produced by virtually all faiths, and people from just about every religion can claim “almost unbelievable change in the character and personality” of the people whom they touch, regardless of the truth of the doctrines they preach. In essence, there is no relationship between spiritual transformation which occurs in the heart of the faithful believer and the spiritual truth which he espouses."Why would God allow all religions, regardless of the theological untruths they espouse, to ignite a spiritual passion within the heart of the believer? The Bible contains a record of many individuals and nations who possessed fervent devotion to their idolatry. Nonetheless, their spiritual adultery is condemned as an utter abomination, regardless of the spirituality and transformation they derived. Why would the Almighty permit religions whose fundamental teachings have no basis in truth to produce life-transforming experiences and miraculous occurrences in the lives of their devout followers?"The answer is found in the beginning of Deuteronomy where the Torah addresses this dilemma in an even more startling scenario. In Deuteronomy 13:1-2 the Bible raises the question of what to do when a “prophet” offers to show a miracle in order to lend credibility to his message. How are we to respond if, in fact, the promised miracle comes to pass just as he predicted? Should we then follow this “prophet” even if he encourages us to worship other gods which are unknown to our people? “You must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer,” the Torah emphatically declares. G-d did not send him."
Fri, 23-Aug-13 09:28:58
mark wrote:But when you start to have those experiences personally, and it's no longer hearsay, and you know darn well you've never used LSD, etc., then maybe it's wise to pay attention. After all, G-d used supernatural experiences to convince many people in the Bible that He was real, and that their beliefs - or lack thereof - needed... adjusting.
“How long will you waver between two opinions? If the L-rd is G-d, follow him; but if Baal is god, follow him.” 1 King 18:21
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Fri, 23-Aug-13 09:38:53
Fri, 23-Aug-13 10:05:51
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Fri, 23-Aug-13 11:14:35
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Fri, 23-Aug-13 12:53:47
Proteus wrote:... this line of argument is heading toward some very thin ice.Judaism stakes all on one "supernatural experience."And then, there is the "closed system" feature that the authoritative evidence for the same is embodied in the product of the same.Thus in my own researches, it's time for me to look beyond the confines of any one religion, for a G-d that transcends and can account for all.This is not Jewish teaching.
Fri, 23-Aug-13 13:43:07
Zvi wrote:The difference is that the entire Jewish nation had a supernatural experience at Mt. Sinai and they appointed Moses to be their agent to receive the rest of the Torah.
Only take heed and watch yourself very carefully, so that you do not forget the things that your eyes saw. Do not let [this memory] leave your hearts, all the days of your lives. Teach your children and children's children about the day you stood before G-d your L-rd at Horeb. . . Then G-d spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words, but saw no image; there was only a voice.He announced to you His covenant, instructing you to keep the ten utterances.Watch yourselves very carefully, since you did not see any image on the day that G-d spoke to you out of the fire at Horeb.. You heard the sound of words, but saw no image; there was only a voice. Has any nation ever heard G-d speaking out of fire, as you have, and still survived? Has G-d ever done miracles bringing one nation out of another nation with such tremendous miracles, signs, wonders, war, a mighty hand and outstretched arm, and terrifying phenomena, as G-d did for you in Egypt before your very eyes? . . .Realize it today and ponder it in your heart: G-d is the Supreme Being in heaven above and on the earth beneath - there is no other. -- D'varim / Deuteronomy 4:9-39
Fri, 23-Aug-13 16:34:12
Sophiee1 wrote:I can't help but wonder how you, Mark, would have reacted to Pharaoh's magicians duplicating Moses' turning a staff into a snake?
Sophiee1 wrote:Many of these emotion filled experiences are from the group hysteria...
Sophiee1 wrote:They surely believed in Baal with all their hearts. They had supernatural experiences.
Sophiee1 wrote:You are ignoring these "supernatural experiences" while trying to convince Jews that yours is special.
Arikm7 wrote:So are you suggesting that whichever "healer" or "prophet" that comes along and produces the best miracles and best displays is actually the "real god"?
Arikm7 wrote:In essence you're reducing the supposed miracles of adherents of other religions as "nonauthentic"
Arikm7 wrote:if that prophet/healer/dreamer/charmer induces one to worship another god other than the G-d of Israel, he is to be executed
Zvi wrote:The difference is that the entire Jewish nation had a supernatural experience
Sat, 24-Aug-13 19:35:46
[This is what you must do] when a prophet or a person who has visions in a dream arises among you. He may present you with a sign or miracle, 13:3 and on the basis of that sign or miracle, say to you, 'Let us try out a different god. Let us serve it and have a new spiritual experience.' 13:4 Do not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. G-d your L-rd is testing you to see if you are truly able to love G-d your L-rd with all your heart and all your soul. 13:5 Follow G-d your L-rd, remain in awe of Him, keep His commandments, obey Him and serve Him, and you will then be able to have a true spiritual experience through Him. 13:6 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for having spoken rebelliously against G-d your L-rd, who brought you out of Egypt and liberated you from the place of slavery. He was trying to make you leave the path that G-d your L-rd commanded you to walk, and you must destroy such evil from your midst. D'varim 13:2-6
[This is what you must do] if your blood brother, your son, your daughter, your bosom wife, or your closest friend secretly tries to act as a missionary among you, and says, 'Let us go worship a new god. Let us have a spiritual experience previously unknown by you or your fathers.' 13:8 [He may be enticing you with] the gods of the nations around you, far or near, or those that are found at one end of the world or another. 13:9 Do not agree with him, and do not listen to him. Do not let your eyes pity him, do not show him any mercy, and do not try to cover up for him, 13:10 since you must be the one to put him to death. Your hand must be the first against him to kill him, followed by the hands of the other people. 13:11 Pelt him to death with stones, since he has tried to make you abandon G-d your L-rd, who brought you out of the slave house that was Egypt. 13:12 When all Israel hears about it, they will be afraid, and they will never again do such an evil thing among you. D'varim 3:7-12
Sat, 24-Aug-13 19:43:39
Sun, 25-Aug-13 08:26:03
Sophiee1 wrote:Mark's lengthy post still misses the entire point -- that spiritual experiences for false religions exist and mean NOTHING.
Sun, 25-Aug-13 10:29:01
Sun, 25-Aug-13 12:44:16
Sun, 25-Aug-13 12:53:11
Sun, 25-Aug-13 13:03:20
Zvi wrote:As usual, Mark missed my point. The ENTIRE Jewish nation received the Torah at Har Sinai. Then, just before they entered Eretz Yisrael, the ENTIRE nation entered into the covenant again.The Torah that they accepted says don't follow a miracle worker if they tell you not to follow the Torah and to engage in strange worship.If the rules were going to change, you would assume that the ENTIRE Jewish nation would be informed in a manner similar to the covenant at Mount Sinai.That never happened.
Sun, 25-Aug-13 13:59:26
No. But it's a moot point, since I'm guessing you've never witnessed any miracles done in the name of Jesus. As far as any other gods are concerned, if you can direct me to some evidence, I'll gladly check it out.
I do not think it’s a moot point. I'm a little confused. On one hand it appears you're dismissing my question but then proceed to, in effect, answer a resounding "YES!" By jumping in and immediately advance the claim that that xianity indeed offers the best miracles and displays the best goods, it trumps everyone else's claims. And the xian god (jeesus--since you specifically mention him) trumps the gods of other religions and trumps the G-d of Israel. I might remind you that indeed Judaism and xianity are exclusive of each other, despite xianity's claim that both it and Judiasm share the same Book and that xianity "came from" Judaism. And even if there were evidence as to the miracles produced by other religions, would that really be enough "evidence" and truthfully, is it really "evidence" since every religion, including your own, touts miracles?
And to be sure, I have been privy to the claims of my Jewish friends who have relayed events which they deem as being "miraculous".
However, it is here I think we should stop and focus on what I mean by "miraculous". I am STILL of the opinion we had better define our terms. You seem to think Miracles are "supernatural". However, I love Rabbi Kahn's definition of what a miracle is (from the Jewish perspective):
"Miracles are naturally occurring phenomeon with amazingly good timing!"
So given that definition, my Jewish friends certainly do have every right to define/interpret their experiences as a "miracle". They certainly didn't go chasing for them. G-d was gracious in manifesting His kindness in that fashion and because of such, they have a deeper affinity for their Creator. And they do not feel the need to advertise this miracle (as its occurrence is self-evident) as xians are so wont to do as "proof" of their 'god's power" and as an "advertising pitch" to get people into their camp.
Given the definition Rabbi Kahn presents, I do believe my friends did experience a "miracle". However, given your stance that only xians have valid miracles, I would assume it is up to your discretion as to what constitutes a "miracle" and no doubt you would just dismiss this. After all, this didn't it come from "jeesus" and given the natural occurrence of things which followed, you would dismiss it as not being 'supernatural" since that apparently is your fixation. You've said as much:
People of all religions offer up very pious sounding prayers that affect almost no visible results - and we're okay with that - as long as nobody else is producing results either.
So the question remains, what happens if other religions (including Judaism) produce "results"? However, again, we must define our terms: What is deemed as 'results'? What is your barometer concerning what is a 'result"? Acceptance of the Jman and his "holy spirit"? Did it ever occur to you that there are miracles and wonders experienced by those in Judaism? To take something so personal, so sacred and so intimate and publicly put on show is an affront to not only the relationship but also an insult to propriety. Besides, it's nobody's business. Our relationship with G-d is ours. We don't have this compulsion to show off for everyone like so many of these faith-healers and miracle workers do (and you have to concede that most ARE charlatans!) So I am very interested as to what you consider "results".
But really would it matter? Implicit in your comment is the possibility and the right to dismiss anything that doesn't align itself to the theology of xianity. This isn't a charge against you personally but it appears you are simply parroting and defaulting to the xian way of seeing the world. So invariably, you'll come to invalidate the miracles of other religions but ironically wishing we (and others) simply accept your claim about the veracity of the miracles allegedly occurring in the xian camp.
And again, I must stress that xianity doesn't hold a monopoly on miracles (even though currently it asserts that only its miracles are valid). As I've said three to four times before--Every culture and every religion touts them. Only the “miracle chasers” are fixated on the validity of such claims. There are references in Egyptian hieroglyphics wherein the Pharoahs attribute their victory over their enemies to the various Egyptian gods. Also there are claims in Greek chronicles about healings that took place in the Temple of Artimes/Diana. Just because you may challenge the validity of these "healings" doesn’t change the historical fact—every religion claimed miracles in the name of their god/pantheon.
Miracles/wonders/signs/et al. are NOT the proofs that any religion is "truth". The validity of such "miracles" is subjective. Just because your variant of xianity touts them doesn't mean your variant of xianity is any more valid than the hundreds of past cults, empires and religions who claimed miracles in the name of their gods or goddesses---and some of them may have been valid.
Also as a brief aside---there are many variants of xianity which do not chase after miracles and signs nor claim them as some validating proof of their theological clams. So not all xians are "miracle chasers" or expect to live in the "supernatural" as a common feature of the xian life. Would an absence of miracles or the "supernatural" within these branches of xianity (as miracles and such are not the focus of these groups) invalidate these groups as not being xian enough as they don't have "results"? So is xianity some sort of "wonder" sport?
And again, what truly gets to be qualified as a "miracle"? Isn't the fact that that the Jewish People and the Torah (and their relationship with G-d) still remain after 1970 years of xian and now muslim persecution, itself a miracle? Or is it that you don’t accept this "miracle" because it is not specifically linked to your jeesus (apart from xian retinkering of Hebrew Scriptures)?
As to whether or not I have had personally seen “miracles” in the name of Jeesus.. the bottom line is that for a Jew it most certainly is irrelevant, immaterial and just plain pointless (not to mention traif). Yes, I have been privy to the claims of those among the congregations I attended in my 15 plus years as a xian. And it should be noted that I subscribed to a variant of xianity which in many ways EXPECTED the ‘supernatural”. But to actively seek and expect miracles (again a “miracle chaser”) is really a sign of faithlessness and idolatry per the G-d of the Torah. And yet your NT accuses Jews of demanding and wanting signs to believe, which shows the NT knows nothing of Judaism.
But let's take this "miracle thing" one step further. So what if there were certifiable miracles (and I am certain there ARE certifiable miracles/healings and such both in xianity and other religions)? Are they enough proof that one religion is the truth and all others false? Is it truly a game of religious label reading wherein we're to make sure that a sign of a "valid" religion has miracles as its first ingredient?
Again, if you would have read my posts, the Torah actually says that even if the “sign (word) or wonder (miracle) were to come to pass, if the person doing this even in the name of G-d induces others to leave the worship of G-d (as Israel knows Him) for a method NOT outlined/prescribed in the Torah, that person is not to be believed and is to be executed. And we give it no mind/validity as it is simply a test from G-d as to our commitment to Him, even if there is the possibility we could obtain what we most want apart from Him (ala Jeesus, Zeus, the voodoo lady down the street, etc.) It is unholy and spiritually damaging for a Jew to even entertain this, valid or not. The defining element is not whether it's valid; the question is rather one of holiness. The Torah says it's unholy for a Jew. Other religions may tout "results" but the end "result" of a Jew's involvement in that religion is total spiritual annihilation. This is implicit in the Torah. The one who engages in such deception is "cut off" from Israel. And we see it so clearly within two generations. Those who abandon Judaism within two generations cease to exist as Jews; and no, this messy-antic abomination doesn't count. So miracles aren't the defining factor whether something is truly from G-d or approved by G-d.
Furthermore, Sophiee1 was kind enough to spoon-feed us the injunctions against many of the things that xianity espouses as “supernatural”---talking to demons (that’s what an exorcism is), future-telling (words of knowledge), mystical visions of heaven (ala Revelation and "end time" pronouncements), prophetic words (end time scenarios and "Left Behind" series, anyone?), speaking in tongues, trying to tell Jews about the "end times" and basically that Jews live and die as some sort of move in a Cosmic/Jesus vs Antichrist end game; inducing/seeking healings via incantations (and using Jeesus’ name as a talisman to effect healing IS an incantation), etc.
You also asked:
Can you name even one supernatural manifestation, apart from Hebrew scripture, that you can honestly say you believe? Or is it all merely "emotional experience"?
We've covered this so many times... but again, Jesus never "induced" anyone to worship any god but the God of Israel. Agreed?
Yes, we all agree that Hebrew scripture is full of the supernatural miracles God performed for Israel before the days of Jesus.
Sun, 25-Aug-13 19:34:35
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Sun, 25-Aug-13 19:51:33
Sun, 25-Aug-13 23:41:14
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