Yuku free message boards

Quote:

---

:

---

Quote:

---

Psalms 22:17 For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers encompassed me, like a lion are my hands and my feet.

---

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Genesis, 21:12

Quote:

---

If you accept that this verse is speaking of a Moshiach, then you obvisouly believe that Jesus did all of the things mentioned in it, and that the entire psalm decribes him and the events to a tee. You must, because you are claiming that he fulfilled this "prophecy".

Ok, rather than debate about a single sentense or a single word, let's go with the entire Psalm. And I will even ascribe all of the events to Jsus, and I will even use "pierce" in the one verse that you are so adamant about. It isn;t a problem for me because if you read through all of verses 2-27 (or 1-26 in your numbering system) you will see why "pierce" or "lion" doesn't add weight to your case, but in fact diminishes to into nothing.

So let's see if you can accept that this entire Psalm is of the Moshiach, because once you read the entire psalm, you will see that if you want the person in this Psalm to be Jesus, then you need to also accept everything else that it says, which includes removing all deification from him as well.

Ok?


PSALM 22 (Revised for Chrstians)

22:2 - "My G-d, my G-d, for what purpose have You forsaken me, and my crying words are far from my Help?"

(Here we have Jesus on the cross, a distraught man feeling abandoned by G-d. He believes that his words are being ignored by G-d, far from the One who can help.)

22:3 - "My G-d, I call out by day, and You do not answer! And [I call out] at night [and You do not answer me]! And there is no inner-quiet/calm for me."

(Jsus declares that he has been feeling abandoned by G-d, not just at this instant, but day and night, over a period of time, alone and despondent. Feelings of abandonment and despair are based on fear, and it is normal for a human being who is condemned to die to be afraid and feel abandoned instead of facing his execution while declaring his faith in G-d.)

22:4 "But it is You Who are holy, [it is You] Who inhabits the praises of Israel."

(Jsus is declaring that only G-d is the expression of "kedushah", this experiance that is beyond the grasp of humanity, including himself, and that Israel has always declares it's praises to G-d alone and no other.)

22:5 "It was with You that our fathers felt secure, [trusting], and you provided for them [delivering them from their distress]."

(Here Jsus is declaring that just as G-d helped the Patriarchs out of their time of trouble, he too wanted to be saved from this hour of terror. But unlike them, he did not feel very secure, or trusting, for his feelings of abandonment are immense).

22:6 "It was to You that they cried out, and they escaped danger because of You. They trusted in You and were not dissapointed [in their expectation of deliverance]."

(Jsus is declaring that only G-d can help him, just as he helped the Patriarchs. Jesus is declaring that not by his righteousness, but the righteousness of the Patriarchs may he be delivered from this terror through the memory of their righteousness.)

22:7 "But [compared to them] I am a worm, and not [even worthy of being] a man, I am scorned of men and despised by the nation."

(Jsus declares that he recognizes that he is not at the level of spirituality as the Patriarchs, asks G-d to deliver him from his terror on their righteousness even though he does not deserve it. And the Jewish people, he says, have declared that he is not worthy, they despise him and want nothing to do with him.)

22:8 "All those who see me, scorn me. They reject me with a sneer of the lip and their shaking head."

(Jsus is acknowledging that everyone, without exception, reject him. Mocking him, belittling him, or shaking the head, wondering how someone could fall so far. He is friendless and alone, with only G-d to talk to, who has ignored him.)

22:9 ["They are saying:] 'Let us toss it to HaShem! He will deliver it, He will save it', [and they mockingly say] 'He takes pleasure in him'."

(Jsus is saying that his enemies are planning to rip him off of the cross, [since he already said the "My G-d, my G-d, while he was on the cross, and this comes next]. And they now want to do something really nasty, just to prove that G-d has no real interest in this man, treating him as though he is not a man, but a thing.)

As a side note, the Hebrew word "gohl" [cast/wrest] implies difficulty in holding onto something before casting a struggling object, pulling it away before tossing it aside)

22:10 "For it was You Who thrust me from the womb, [it was You Who] gave me hope [while I was nursing] upon my mother's breast."

(Jsus is declaring that while he may not have wanted to be born, and maybe his birth was not an easy one, still, as far as he could remember, he always trusted in the One G-d, that G-d would always be there to help when he needed it. And he really needs help now. He is begging to be set free.)

22:11 "It was upon You that I was sent from the the uterus, from the womb of my mother. You are my G-d."

(Oh, this is a tough one. Jesus is declaring that he has always been drawn to G-d, even before he was born, that he had an innate knowing and devout experience of G-d, even while in the womb, declaring that the One and only G-d who created him is his G-d too!)

22:12 "Be not far from me, for misfortune is imminent, since there is no help."

(This repeats the theme of verse 2-3, where Jsus feels that he has been abandoned, and declares that there is no human help that can get him out of this mess, and that if G-d doesn't come through, the G-d he has always believed in, then he will soon die.)

22:13 "Many bulls have come around me, the brave ones of Bashan have encircled me!"

(Jsus is noting that the powerful ones of the Gentile nations are all around him, for Bulls are typically representative of powerful nations, just as 70 bulls were sacrificed for the 70 powerful nations in the Temple. Bashan was, at the time of this Psalm, one of those nations. Jsus was telling G-d that the place where he was being crucified were full of gentiles of various kinds who wanted him dead. Blast those Romans! Damn those Greeks!)

22:14 "They open up their mouth against me, they are a lion, ravening, roaring."

(Here, Jsus is saying how all of the enemies of the Jews who are also his enemies and have put him in this predicament, are "roaring", attacking him in unison, seeking his destruction as the non-Jewish enemies have plotted for his death. The metaphor of a beast, a lion is more powerful than a bull, and it is the first of the times it is used in thie Psalm).

22:15 "I am spilling out, like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has become like wax that is melting within my deepest parts."

(Jsus is saying that he is like water, which has no form of it's own, for he feels like he has no support from man or G-d. Even his limbs no longer are of any use, for he is feels crippled, weak, and despairs, his heart poured out to the One G-d).

22:16 "My strength is dried up like a clay shard, and my tongue feels glued to my palate. And You have sent me to be covered with the dust of death."

(Jsus feels that his limited strength is failing, he is thirsty and requires water to survive, he knows that without G-d saving him, that he will soon die. And if so, then so be it.)

(Ok, I will let the next verse read "pierce" just for the fun of it instead of the previously used "lion"!)

22:17 "For dogs have already surrounded me. A company of evil doers who are piercing my hands and feet"

(Jsus is saying that while he is on the cross, non Jews, or "dogs" (See "Matthew" where Jsus refers to non-Jews in this manner) are sorrounding him and piercing his hands and feet.)

22:18 "I recall to myself all of my "bones" They (the evil doers) behold this and look at me."

(Jsus is recalling the past of those who came before who are long dead (as he did in verse 5), and the evil gentiles who did this to him, they see this, and they stare in bewilderment that he is not crying for them to let him go, but is instead recounting the deads of the righteous Jews who are the foundation of Israel [something that the "gospels" must have left out).

Quote:

---

22:19 "They divide my garments among themselves, casting lots for my clothing."

---

(Here Jsus is declaring that the non-Jews, the enemies of the Jewish people, are taking his property [which was slashed into shreds during his lashing], and they are even gambling to see who can get the best of these stringy garments.)

22:20 "But You HaShem, do not be far off. You are my strength. Hasten to help me!"

(Jsus is saying that he is but mortal, weak, and dying, and that only the One G-d who created him can help, for only Hashem is the true source of all strength.)

22:21 "Deliver my soul from the sword, and my one and only from the power of the dog"

(Here, Jsus is praying that he not die by the sword, and that the Jewish people with whom he was "yechid" [united with ] should not be overpowered by their enemies as he has been.)

22:22 Save me from the lions mouth, for you have already heard me from the horns of the Re'emin")

(Oops. There is that pesky "lion" metaphor again! Here we have Jsus saying that the evil doers (See verse 14) who seek his death and the death of the Jewish people are upon him. Jsus doesn't want to die and cries out for deliverance, just as he has recounted again and again asking to be saved, but it will be a cry unanswered.)

22:23 "I will declare Your Name to my bretheren, I will praise You in the midst of the congregations with songs proclaiming Your mighty acts."

(Here, Jsus is saying that if he survives this, he will speak of HaShem to the Jewish people, praising HaShem to all of the congregations of Jews everywhere, and speaking not of himself, but only of the greatness of HaShem. Hmmm, that is problematic for one who is supposed to be G-d!)

22:24 "You [Jewish people] who are in awe of HaShem, praise Him with songs proclaiming His mighty acts. All of you children of Jacob, glorify Him (G-d) and stand in awe of Him (G-d), all of you people of Israel!"

(Another deity problem arises. Here, Jsus turns his atttention away from himself and cries out to the Jewish people to do what he has promised to do, to praise HaShem only, and serve Him in all of His ways. In fact, it seems as though he has cut himself away from any intermediary form and is telling people to pray directly to Hashem.)

22:25 "For He (G-d) has neither despised the nor abhored the lowliness of the poor, nor has He hid His presence from him, and when he cried to Him, He heard!

(Now Jsus is declaring that blessed are the poor (ahni) for they will know G-d and he will respond. In this way, he is recalling his sermon on the mount and declaring himself as an "ahni", a poor man who has nothing of his own)

22:26 "From You comes my praise, in the great congregation I will pay my vows, in the presence of those who are in awe of him"

(Jsus is declaring that any praises that he recieves is by way of HaShem, and not of anything that he has done. He is also saying that one day, he will come before the great Sanhedrin, consisting of Jews who are in awe of HaShem, and will pay his "neder" (a vow). A Jew who makes a vow is required to bring an atonement for having done so. It's a sin with a method of correction. And Jsus is admitting that he will atone if he will but be set free.)

22:27 "Let the meek eat and be satisfied. Let them praise ]HaShem, those who seek Him, may your hearts be alive forever"

(Here we have Jsus speaking of the humble Jews, that they should come together, celebrate, and bentch together. He speaks of those who seek to serve HaShem and no other G-d. And declares that their passion should be the type of passion that should live forever, to serve the One G-d. Do we see a pattern here of whom Jsus is telling the people to have a relationship with and Who alone to pray to? Do we see that the speaker does not say me but Him? Do we see that the speaker not only doesn't declare his own worthiness to be served but directs people to serve HaShem alone?)

. . .If you are willing to accept that this entire Psalm speaks of the central figure not being G-d, of telling others to pray alone to HaShem and no other, and that he is not only unworthy, but is simply a man, I am more than willing to switch the word "lion" for "pierce"!

Copyright 2005 KosherJudaism.com All Rights Reserved
Please report any problems to webmaster@kosherjudaism.com

---

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Genesis, 21:12

Quote:

---

For dogs have surrounded me; a pack of evil doers has enclosed me l[ike the prey of a lion are my hands and my feet

---

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Genesis, 21:12