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Posts: 20703
Sun, 1-Jul-07 19:32:16
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Posts: 308
Mon, 2-Jul-07 05:10:00
Quote:Hi mbczion, If dying for something proves a faith to be "true", then the Muslims outdo us all....None of the muslim made the night ride with Mohamed (of course because it never happened, but that is beside the point). The muslim martyrs are taught what they believe or read the account for themselves and/or a combination thereof. No direct experience with Mohamed.
Quote:The disciples weren't taught by hearing or reading about Jesus, like we do to make a choice to believe or not - they experienced the resurrected Jesus right there with them and saw him ascend to heaven, after they thought their hopes that he was the messiah was dashed when Jesus was crucified. When they experienced the resurrected Jesus right there with them, they were changed, all of them, which is important, and went out and preached the gospel.
Posts: 3232
Mon, 2-Jul-07 10:00:02
Posts: 870
Mon, 2-Jul-07 10:45:49
Quote:it seems to me that is proof what they experienced was true.
Mon, 2-Jul-07 11:10:15
Quote:My point is that 100% of the disciples were profoundly changed that they spent the rest of their life's traveling to different countries to spread the gospel message....were persecuted and were eventually killed.
Quote:Following the disciples, called apostles after experiencing the resurrected Jesus - not everyone who heard the gospel became Christians. Nor does everyone who hears the Judaism theology embraces it, even among Jews. The conversion rate is not 100%. Far from it. But in the case of the disciples - it was 100%.
Quote:No-one today was there with the disciples as they experienced the risen Jesus, nor is anyone alive today who experienced the national revelation at Mt. Sinai. We go by what we are taught and read about or drawn to - which differs us from those who experienced directly. Since our belief rate is far from 100%, while the disciples was 100% with total commitment even to death - it seems to me that is proof what they experienced was true.
Mon, 2-Jul-07 14:39:40
Mon, 2-Jul-07 14:59:03
Quote:Not the same. You restated but misrepresented. It was not a belief but an experience in their particular case
Posts: 128
Mon, 2-Jul-07 17:16:53
Quote:After the resurrection though when they met the risen Jesus, the apostles were so happy,
Mon, 2-Jul-07 17:44:00
Quote:Not the same. You restated but misrepresented. It was not a belief but an experience in their particular case. They did not hear about Jesus, nor read about Jesus - he was right there with them after having risen from the grave. And it was not merely a majority, but 100%.
Mon, 2-Jul-07 17:57:54
Posts: 1232
Mon, 2-Jul-07 20:30:33
Mon, 2-Jul-07 22:46:14
Mon, 2-Jul-07 23:17:33
Posts: 2135
Mon, 2-Jul-07 23:50:51
Quote:Sophiee's point is how do we know that a group of people didn't just make the gospel up and the resurrection and the appearance of Jesus to the disciples? Which is the purpose of the title of my post. Who would die for a lie? The disciples died for an experience. Whether we chose to believe the account of their experience as being true or not - well that's a decision everyone will have to make for themselves.mbczion suggested that the whole thing was a hoax. But why I say? Why would 100% of the disciples get together even after Peter had denied even knowing Jesus and all of the other disciples also abandoned him get together to conspire a hoax which would cause them to be persecuted, journey a lifetime to foreign lands, and eventually be killed. Even planning afore hand that the disciple John would not be killed. How could they have controlled that? And through that 40 or 50 years of journeys, hardships, persecution, torture, and eventually death that not a one of them over that entire period said - oh we just made it up?No, my rationale says there is no way that it was a planned hoax.
Mon, 2-Jul-07 23:57:36
Quote:Let's say you have dinner with your rabbi. Is that a belief or an experience?The next day you tell your friends about having dinner with your rabbi. Now they may choose to believe your or not. To me their's would be a belief. But what you had was an experience.The disciples had an experience with the resurrected Jesus, ate with him, and finally saw him ascend to heaven.
Posts: 232
Mon, 2-Jul-07 23:59:28
Tue, 3-Jul-07 05:33:30
Quote:Of course there are martyrs in other religions... islam, buddhism etc. But those convictions were based upon indoctrination i.e brainwashing, while the apostles ALL were changed by the direct risen Jesus - in person, not a teaching or philosophy.
Quote:"if i testify about myself, my testimony is not valid." john 5:31.
Tue, 3-Jul-07 06:52:15
Quote:Not that I accept human testimony
Tue, 3-Jul-07 07:10:10
Tue, 3-Jul-07 09:12:19
Quote:mbczion suggested that the whole thing was a hoax. But why I say? Why would 100% of the disciples get together even after Peter had denied even knowing Jesus and all of the other disciples also abandoned him get together to conspire a hoax which would cause them to be persecuted, journey a lifetime to foreign lands, and eventually be killed. Even planning afore hand that the disciple John would not be killed. How could they have controlled that? And through that 40 or 50 years of journeys, hardships, persecution, torture, and eventually death that not a one of them over that entire period said - oh we just made it up?No, my rationale says there is no way that it was a planned hoax.
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