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Posts: 3232
Wed, 18-Jul-07 12:58:26
Posts: 1507
Wed, 18-Jul-07 18:51:21
Quote:You had better check again - the answer is zero of that generation coming out of Egypt who stood at Mt. Sinai above the age of 20 - with the exception of Caleb and Joshua. None of those who you "claim" became righteous by repentance and good works, made it into the promised land. They didn't make it because they didn't believe God, they lacked faith, which in similitude, faith which we Christians say is the fundamental ingredient for entering the world to come. Down at the end of this post I provided the verses that substantiate my position.
Quote:1. And Moses called all Israel, and said to them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that you may learn them, and keep, and do them.2. The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.3. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, who are all of us here alive this day.4. The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,5. I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to tell you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire, and went not up into the mount, saying, Devarim 5 (Artscroll Edition Torah)
Quote:Numbers 26:64 kjv But among these there was not a man of them whom Moses and Aaron the priest numbered, when they numbered the children of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai.26:65 For the LORD had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
Quote:B'midbar (Numbers) 26 1-2: "It was after the Plauge --HaShem spoke to Moses and Elazar son of Aaron the Kohen saying, "Take a census of the entire assembly of the Children of Israel, from 20 years of age and up, according to their father's houses, all who out to the legion of Israel." Moses and Elazar the Kohen spoke to them in the Plains of Moav, by the Jordan, near Jericho saying: "From 20 years of age and up, as Hashem had commanded Moses and the Children of Israel who were coming out of the Land of Egypt".
Quote:Devarim 2:14 ...The days that we traveled from Kadesh-Bernea until we crossed the Wadi zared were 38 years, UNTIL THE END OF THE ENTIRE GENERATION, THE MEN OF WAR, from the midst of the camp, as HaShem swore to them. Even the hand of HaShem was on them to confound them from the midst of the camp until their end. So it was that the MEN OF WAR finished dying from admist the PEOPLE. (emphasis mine)."
Quote:It has to do with your erroneous claim that the Children of Israel were spared - not because Moses interceded, but "because Israel itself had spent 40 days in mourning and in tshuvah", as you say.
Quote:What I am showing Arikm, the similitude between the acts of Moses with those of Jesus. But Jesus was in the Christian view addressing a much larger picture, not of entering a land on this present earth, but the world to come.
Quote:Devarim 34:10: Never again has there arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom HaShem had known face to face, as evidenced by all the signs and wonders that HaShem sen him to perform in the Land of Egypt, against Pharoah an all his courtiers and all his land; and by all the strong hand and awesome power that Moses performed before the eyes of all of Israel"
Quote:B'midbar 6-8: "Hear now My Words. If there shall be prophets among you, in a vision shall I, HaShem, make Myself known to him; in a dream shall I speak with him. Not so is my Servant Moses; in My ENTIRE House he is the Trusted One. Mouth to Mouth do I speak to him; in a clear vision and not in riddles, at the image of HaShem does he gaze; Why do you not fear to speak against My servant Moses?"
Quote:Devarim 6: 23-25: "And He took us out of there (Egypt) in order to bring us, to give us the Land that He swore to our forefathers. HaShem commanded us to perform all of these decrees, to fear Hashem, our G-d, for our goo, all the days, to give us life, AS THIS VERY DAY. And it WILL BE RIGHTEOUSNESS FOR US, if we are careful to perform this entire commandment before HaShem our G-d as He commanded us."
Quote:Melekim A 2:3: King David to his recently crowned son King Solomon: "Safeguard the charge of HaShem, your G-d, to walk in His ways, to observe His Decrees, Commandments, Ordinances and Testimonies, as written in the Torah of Moses, so that you will succeed in all that you do and where you turn."
Quote:Ve'yikrah (Leviticus) 18:4-5: "Carry out My Laws and safeguard My Decrees to follow them; I am HaShem, your G-d. You shall observe My Decrees and My Laws, which man shall carry out and by which he shall LIVE-- I am HaShem" (emphasis, mine)
Quote:Devarim 4:1-1. Now therefore give heed, O Israel, to the statutes and to the judgments, which I teach you, to do them, that you may LIVE, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers gives you.2. You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish nothing from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.3. Your eyes have seen what the Lord did because of Baal-Peor, to all the men who followed Baal-Peor; the Lord your God has destroyed them from among you.4. But you who held fast to the Lord your God are alive every one of you this day.5. Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do so in the land where you go to take possession of it.6. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, who, when they shall hear all these statutes, shall say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." (emphasis, mine)
Quote:Devarim 5: 29. You shall take care to do it therefore as the Lord your God has commanded you; you shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.30. You shall walk in all the ways which the Lord your God has commanded you, that you may live, and that it may be well with you, and that you may prolong your days in the land which you shall possess."
Quote:Devarim 7: 6. For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a special people to himself, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth.7. The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all peoples;8. But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn to your fathers, has the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of slaves, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.9. Know therefore that the Lord your God, he is God, the faithful God, which keeps covenant and mercy with those who love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;10. And repays those who hate him to their face, to destroy them; he will not be slack to him who hates him, he will repay him to his face."
Wed, 18-Jul-07 19:02:30
Quote:I didn't say Moses failed. I said he didn't accomplished it on his first trip to Egypt. It was intended in God's plan, that Moses bring universal knowledge of God to the Children of Israel, on his Second coming into Egypt, not on his first time. In similitude, it is intended that, according to what we believe, that Jesus will not bring universal knowledge of God to the world until he returns when his foot touches down on the Mt. of Olives at his Second coming to planet earth.
Quote:So if Judaism accepts some forthcoming messiah, who they think is going to bring universal knowledge of God -like it says in Zechariah 14:9.... and the Mt. of Olives has not been split into like it says in 14:2.... then they got the wrong guy.
Thu, 19-Jul-07 14:42:46
Thu, 19-Jul-07 15:08:03
Posts: 20703
Thu, 19-Jul-07 19:30:47
Moderator
Quote:Exodus 32:32 Now, if You would, please forgive their sin. If not, You can blot me out from the book that You have written.' 32:33 G-d replied to Moses, 'I will blot out from My book those who have sinned against Me.
Thu, 19-Jul-07 19:36:44
Thu, 19-Jul-07 19:41:46
Fri, 20-Jul-07 07:11:45
Fri, 20-Jul-07 07:58:33
Posts: 4492
Fri, 20-Jul-07 10:02:46
Administrator
Quote:Arikm, Agreed. I feel it is now the time to request that Dougg be made aware of the Jewish position on this forum and if he cannot accept it, maybe it's time he moves on.Quote from the board rules: "The level of nastiness and negativity of the language and tone being used by some participants on this board in particular, but on the other active boards as well, has gone beyond civility on several occasions. For example, there's no need for participants to openly ask that others be banned."
Fri, 20-Jul-07 10:06:36
Tue, 24-Jul-07 21:51:07
Wed, 25-Jul-07 08:26:16
Quote:Numbers 26:64 kjv But among these there was not a man of them. . .
Quote:Exodus 10:24Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and said, "Go, worship HaShem. Even your women and children may go with you
Quote:Exodus Exodus 12:37The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children.
Quote:26:28 By their families, the descendants of Joseph were Manasseh and Ephraim. 26:29 The descendants of Manasseh consisted of the Makhirite family from Makhir. Makhir's son was Gilead, and from Gilead came the family of the Gileadites. 26:30 These were the descendants of Gilead: The Iyezerite family from Iyezer, the Chelekite family from Chelek, 26:31 the Asrielite family from Asriel, the Shikhmite family from Shekhem, 26:32 the Shemidaite family from Shemida, and the Chefrite family from Chefer. 26:33 Chefer's son, Tzelafchad, did not have any sons, only daughters. The names of Tzelafchad's daughters were Machla, No'ah, Chaglah, Milkah and Tirtzah. 26:34 These are the families of Manasseh, and their tally was 52,700.
Fri, 27-Jul-07 03:19:42
Fri, 27-Jul-07 07:49:52
Quote:The children of the first generation went in alright, but as adults, the second generation
Fri, 27-Jul-07 09:25:30
Fri, 27-Jul-07 13:36:49
Quote:the adults of the first generation had children who were born in Egypt and in the wilderness. Both groups combined are the second generation because they were the children of the first generation
Quote:Numbers 32:11 'None of the men over 20 years old who left Egypt will see the land that I swore to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, since they did not follow Me wholeheartedly
Posts: 2024
Fri, 27-Jul-07 15:45:54
Fri, 27-Jul-07 17:04:29
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