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Posts: 3232
Fri, 4-Sep-15 02:28:58
Sophiee1 wrote: Josephus did not see Antiochus as the little horn (of chapters 7 and 8), but as the second messiah.
The point not being who that second messiah might have been -- but the mere fact that Josephus recognizes a Roman anointed one (messiah) as the final king -- the fulfillment of Daniel 9:26-27.
Posts: 20703
Fri, 4-Sep-15 06:40:18
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there should arise a certain King that should overcome our nation, and their laws, and should take away their political government, and should spoil the temple, and forbid the sacrifices to be offered, for three years time.” And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel’s vision; and what he wrote many years before they came to pass. In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government; and that our country should be made desolate by them. All these things did this man leave in writing, as God had shewed them to him.
AND now Titus (the Roman leader) gave orders to his soldiers that were with him to dig up the foundations of the tower of Antonia, and make him a ready passage for his army to come up; while he himself had Josephus brought to him, (for he had been informed that on that very day, which was the seventeenth day of Panemus, [Tamuz,] the sacrifice called "the Daily Sacrifice" had failed, and had not been offered to G-d, for want of men to offer it, and that the people were grievously troubled at it. . .
This was a remarkable day indeed, the seventeenth of Paneruns. [Tamuz,] (CE) 70, when, according to Daniel's prediction, six hundred and six years before, the Romans "in half a week caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease," Daniel 9:27. For from the month of February, (CE) 66, about which time Vespasian entered on this war, to this very time, was just three years and a half. See Bishop Lloyd's Tables of Chronology, published by Mr. Marshall, on this year. Nor is it to be omitted, what year nearly confirms this duration of the war, that four years before the war begun was somewhat above seven years five months before the destruction of Jerusalem, ch. 5. sect. 3.
Quote:9:26 I.e., Agrippa, the last Jewish king, at the end of the second Temple era. After his death, the prince of this verse the Roman Titus, would command the destruction of the Temple, which will not rebuilt until after the War of Gog and Magog in messianic times (Rashi).
Fri, 4-Sep-15 10:23:14
Sophiee1 wrote:Douggg: Note that in The Wars of the Jews (also by Josephus) which I quoted in my first response to you Josephus identifies the Roman Emperor Titus (Vespasian) as the second messiah of Daniel 9. That passage was quoted in my earlier post, but I'll post it again from The Wars of the Jews, also by Josephus and written nearly 2000 years ago. The reference is in book 6, chapter 2.
Fri, 4-Sep-15 11:39:03
"There is no traditional Jewish commentator who mentions anything about gaps in the 70 week period. In private communication Dr. (Michael) Brown (Christian apologist) admitted that the reference to Rashi was an error, and that the interpreters are all Christian ones. The importance of this is that no Jewish commentator needs a gap at all because, as I mentioned in my article, based on the Biblical chronology the 70 week/490 year period works out with no gaps at all. Christians require gaps because using the secular chronology Daniel’s prophecy does not work out for their interpretation without one."The truth is that the use of a gap is an admission that there is a problem with interpretation and/or the prophecy in Daniel itself. While the text had three periods, they are grouped together explicitly as one long period of 70 weeks. That means when the prophecy was given only 490 consecutive years was meant.". . .We can summarize our conclusions quite simply: The 70 weeks are divided into three periods There are two different anointed ones Neither can be Jesus Christians have no explanation of who the first anointed one was. There is no interpretation by Christians that can make the numbers work and fit what Daniel says.
Fri, 4-Sep-15 12:11:13
"after the sixty-two weeks (shavuim)"
Fri, 4-Sep-15 13:24:24
Sophiee1 wrote:Douggg -- you are trying to change the subject, to whit that the separation between the 7 weeks and 62 weeks is clear, and one does not need the Masoretes to determine that it is clear. Uri pointed out that in Hebrew the "textual syntax, context, and relationship to other texts in the Hebrew Bible help determine the structure as well, and the trope markings just facilitate it and make it much easier." This is the point that referencing Josephus re-enforces. Continually trying to change the subject when refuted does nothing for your arguments.
I have thrice referred you to R' Moshe Shulman's article discussing the chronology of Daniel 9. It is quite clear that whatever gymnastics a missionary may try none of the timeframes fit Jesus. For a fourth time here is the link. I highly suggest you read it (but then I've highly recommended it before and apparently you have never bothered).
Fri, 4-Sep-15 13:34:25
Sophiee1 wrote:One more point. Daniel 9 makes it clear that the 7 and 62 are separate time frames (and not 69) based on Daniel 9:26 itself which says: "after the sixty-two weeks (shavuim)"
Fri, 4-Sep-15 13:47:44
UriYosef wrote:Douggg, I do not intend to get into a lengthy discussion with you over those issues, because they have already been covered in other Jewish presentations on Daniel 9. UriYosef
"the masorectic markings are fairly recent aren't they?"
Fri, 4-Sep-15 14:00:50
Douggg wrote:It's in the KJV as separate time frames as well. . . Every Christian agrees with you that the 7 weeks and 62 weeks are separate time frames.
"The appearance of "Messiah the Prince" at the end of the 69 weeks (483 years)[34] is equated with Jesus' baptism in 27 CE, in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, and the "cutting off" of the "anointed one" Wikipedia.
“7 weeks and 62 weeks" שָׁבֻעִ֖ים שִׁבְעָ֑ה וְשָׁבֻעִ֞ים שִׁשִּׁ֣ים וּשְׁנַ֗יִם
"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks." KJV, Daniel 9:25.
"And after 3 score and 2 weeks" KJV (62 shavuim).
after the sixty-two weeks this anointed one is cut off (Daniel 9:26)
Sat, 5-Sep-15 14:17:02
Sat, 5-Sep-15 22:34:06
Douggg wrote:Sophiee, in verse 25 messiah comes........ in verse 26 messiah dies. How many messiahs?
This is the intent of the meaning of the term כרת in the Torah, as [Bamidbar / Numbers 15:31] states: "That soul shall surely be cut off."
Quote:Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his (Darius son of Ahasuerus) reign, I, Daniel, contemplated the calculations, the number of years about which the word of HaShem had come to the prophet Jeremiah, to complete the seventy years since the ruin of Jerusalem. 2. I set my face toward the L-rd, G-d, to beseech (with) prayer and supplication, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.
Quote:24 Seventy septets have been decreed upon your people and upon your holy city to terminate transgression, to end sin, to wipe away iniquity, to bring everlasting righteousness, to confirm the visions and prophets and to anoint the Holy of Holies.25 Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the word to return and to build Jerusalem until a messiah, the prince (messiah #1 -- Cyrus, 7 shavuim) will be seven septets, and fir sixty-two septets it will be rebuilt, street and moat but in troubled times.26 Then, after the sixty-two septets , מָשִׁ֖יחַ / a messiah (messiah #2 -- 434 years later 62 shavuim) will be cut off and will exist no longer; the people of the prince will come and will destroy the city and the Sanctuary; but his end will be (to be swept away as) in a flood. Then, until the end of the war, desolation is decreed.27 He will also forge a strong covenant with the great ones, for one septet, but for half of that septet he will abolish sacrifice and meal offerings and the mute abominations will be upon soaring heights, until extermination as decreed will pour down upon the mute (abomination).
Quote:9:24 Lit., seventy weeks, this phrase refers to seventy times seven years or 490 years. This refers to the seventy years of exile that have passed sine the Destruction of the First Temple (Sophiee's note: see 9:2-3 quoted above) until this vision and the entire 420 year period of the Second Temple (Rashi).9:25 The septets (shavuim) refer to full seven-year periods. The prince of this verse is Cyrus, who gave permission to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple. He ascended to the throne fifty-two years (seven full septets plus three years) after the exile has begun. From then until the second destruction of Jerusalem was 438 years, or sixty two septets and four years (Rashi).9:26 I.e., Agrippa, the last Jewish king, at the end of the second Temple era. After his death, the prince of this verse the Roman Titus, would command the destruction of the Temple, which will not rebuilt until after the War of Gog and Magog in messianic times (Rashi).9:27 The Roman emperor would make a treaty with the Jewish nation for seven years, but for the second half of the term the Romans would violate that covenant and impede the Temple service. The mute abomination, i.e. a temple idolatry, was erected by the emperor Hadrian on the Temple Mount (Rashi).
Sat, 5-Sep-15 22:40:38
Posts: 1507
Sun, 6-Sep-15 09:01:15
Sun, 6-Sep-15 10:49:41
Sophiee1 wrote:The 70 weeks are divided into three periods There are two different anointed ones Neither can be Jesus Christians have no explanation of who the first anointed one was. There is no interpretation by Christians that can make the numbers work and fit what Daniel says.Whoever that final messiah might have been -- and as I mentioned there were actually a few of them alive 2000 years ago including Titus -- is immaterial. The point of Daniel 9 is that the Jews returning from Babylonian exile were given a period of time to avoid a second exile. They did not heed Daniel's words and thus the prediction of the demise of the country came to pass. The prediction came true.
The 70 weeks are divided into three periods There are two different anointed ones Neither can be Jesus Christians have no explanation of who the first anointed one was. There is no interpretation by Christians that can make the numbers work and fit what Daniel says.
Sun, 6-Sep-15 16:11:48
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