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Posts: 4492
Sat, 10-Feb-07 21:54:09
Administrator
Quote:According to you, how can it be possible that the Tanakh doesn't say ANYTHING about Jesus, when it predicted and talked about far less important people and things....I find it very difficult to believe that the Tanakh doesn't say anything about Jesus.
Posts: 5269
Sun, 11-Feb-07 00:16:45
Quote:JOE:According to you, how can it be possible that the Tanakh doesn't say ANYTHING about Jesus, when it predicted and talked about far less important people and things.
Quote:JOE:We're not talking about 'a prophet' here. We're talking about a person like no other. So, I'm talking about the general warnings of false prophets.
Quote:JOE:Jesus who has close to two billion followers.Jesus who affected the history of mankind like no other.
Quote:JOE:I find it very difficult to believe that the Tanakh doesn't say anything about Jesus.
Posts: 232
Sun, 11-Feb-07 01:11:31
Posts: 213
Sun, 11-Feb-07 06:54:25
Posts: 2135
Sun, 11-Feb-07 09:00:32
Quote:Jesus who has close to two billion followers.
Quote:Jesus who affected the history of mankind like no other.
Quote:There are specific predictions about many people (good, bad) and many things in the Tanakh.I find it very difficult to believe that the Tanakh doesn't say anything about Jesus.
Posts: 204
Sun, 11-Feb-07 10:10:48
Posts: 20703
Sun, 11-Feb-07 12:28:05
Moderator
Quote:My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning. Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster1 who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1) I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head2.' (Lam 3:5) I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3) With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25) I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1) He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33) I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20, (Num 20:8 -- same) I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1) It also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12) He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30) He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.' (Lam. 3:2) I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3) He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7) In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25) He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7) In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1) Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13) I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem. As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3) But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8) It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7) The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12) With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12) He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21) He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8) He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15) I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10) I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) Also 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4) Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4) She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2) She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10) She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6) The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16) After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18) He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12) We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14) Also, 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21) 39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11, Same for Deut 8:10, Same for Deut 11:15). We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it says, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9) There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back. In all seriousness the above example is no different then the lists claiming 200/300/400 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. They claim the odds against a single person fulfilling them are astronomical. Or of their claims that passages like Psalms 22, or Isaiah 53 are about their messiah/god. Consider this well when you see or hear the claims made by missionaries or just simple Christians who you may meet. If not there may be a prophecy that does really apply: 'They are a people bereft of council and they don't have understanding.'
Posts: 1074
Sun, 11-Feb-07 12:31:20
Sun, 11-Feb-07 12:33:57
Quote:Isaiah 24:1 Behold HaShem empties the land and lays it waste, and He shall turn over its face and scatter its inhabitants. 2. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest, as with the slave, so with his master, as with the maidservant, so with her mistress, as with the buyer, so with the seller, as with the lender, so with the borrower, as with the creditor, so with the one who owes him. 3. The land shall be emptied and it shall be pillaged, for HaShem has spoken this thing. 4. The land has mourned, it has withered, the land has been humbled and withered, the highest of the people of the land have been humbled.
Quote:24:5 And the land has deceived because of its inhabitants, for they transgressed instructions, infracted statutes, broke the everlasting covenant. 6. Therefore, an oath has consumed the land, and the inhabitants thereof were wasted; ...
Sun, 11-Feb-07 12:38:29
Quote:JoeDThere are specific predictions about many people (good, bad) and many things in the Tanakh.I find it very difficult to believe that the Tanakh doesn't say anything about Jesus.Fola78Joe, I've asked the same question before.How could the Hebrew prophets who were never AMBIGOUS about anything of significance to the Jews possibly miss Jesus ?
Quote:All the answers I got were GENERIC prophecies and commentaries that could easily apply to a lot of people throughout history.
Sun, 11-Feb-07 12:46:47
Quote:IF these accounts are talking about a "popular" false religion, they are talking about Islam, not Christianity.
Sun, 11-Feb-07 13:21:56
Sun, 11-Feb-07 13:27:12
Quote:The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy. What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)
Sun, 11-Feb-07 17:11:38
Sun, 11-Feb-07 17:29:08
Sun, 11-Feb-07 17:48:56
Sun, 11-Feb-07 18:24:37
Quote: Yes, I'm reading it Uri.As for all the people you mentioned, with all due respect, but in terms of influence and importance, one cannot even begin to measure them in front of Christ.Sorry.Even Calvin, Luther.Arafat?!!! You got to be kidding!I'm talking about the influence of Jesus Christ and you tell me Arafat?
Posts: 2024
Sun, 11-Feb-07 18:51:56
Mon, 12-Feb-07 07:35:59
Mon, 12-Feb-07 08:13:59
Quote:JOE:What is there to answer?You're telling me about what you believe about the messiah.
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