hebrew grammar - Counter-Missionary Education - The Messiah Truth Project - Messiah Truth Discussion Forums - Message Board - Yuku

RSS
Email

0 Kudo

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

hebrew grammar

Author	Comment
meira750	hebrew grammar	Lead	[-]
Posts: 26 (11/09/07 10:20:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None my husband and I made aliyah in 1988 and managed to learn a fair amount of modern Hebrew. We learned that there are 3 basic tenses; past, present and future, nothing about voices or the more complex tenses found in European languages. Admittedly, this Hebrew we were taught was to get us out into society and functioning. My question is this: Whenever a xian talks about correct interpretation of Tanach Hebrew they get into all these voices and tenses such as the passive voice so did those things exist in ancient times or do they exist in higher Hebrew still? I've never heard a rabbi go in this direction when teaching on the meaning of verses.
UriYosef	Re: hebrew grammar	#1	[-]
Posts: 4338 (11/09/07 17:02:42) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	meira - *Quote:* Whenever a xian talks about correct interpretation of Tanach Hebrew they get into all these voices and tenses such as the passive voice so did those things exist in ancient times or do they exist in higher Hebrew still? I've never heard a rabbi go in this direction when teaching on the meaning of verses. The fact is that there are, at times, some "aspectual" attributes connected with verbs used in the Hebrew Bible, but these are a rather small percentage of the overall usage of tenses in connection with verbs - they are far and few between. The reason Christians like to apply these sort of twists to the verbs, and most of these people are far from being expert on the Hebrew language, let alone even know the language (they usually parrot someone else), is that it is the only way they are able to substantiate (in their minds) their claims of fulfillment in the GT of alleged prophecies in their Christian "OT". Upon careful scrutiny, all such claims can be blown off as wishful thinking. UriYosef
meira750	Re: hebrew grammar	#2	[-]
Posts: 26 (11/11/07 12:53:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Yes and that's my experience. They ask us to teach them some basic Hebrew but won't take our word on this. Anytime I try to explain it to them they quote so and so as a biblical authority. They really aren't interested in the mechanics of language. It is exactly as you say. They do these twists and turns to support their agenda. I think the best thing is to walk away when they get into this territory because it is a no win situation. They'll wind up screaming that we are just listening to some man's (rabbi's) interpretation and are deceived and that they'll pray for us. I always tell them I don't want their prayers [in the name of a false god]. That is received with pitying looks and a declaration that they love me anyway.
UriYosef	Re: hebrew grammar	#3	[-]
Posts: 4338 (11/11/07 14:50:35) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	meira - You can see the inconsistency in their attitude. They will "believe" the Rabbis when they teach them the alef-bet, but will not believe the rest when it doesn't "match" their agenda. UriYosef
adara	Re: hebrew grammar	#4	[-]
Posts: 69 (11/13/07 12:25:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	*Quote:* They will "believe" the Rabbis when they teach them the alef-bet, but will not believe the rest when it doesn't "match" their agenda. Very interesting! I'll have to remember this.
ProfBenTziyyon		#5	[-]
Posts: 1916 (04/04/09 19:20:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	meira750 wrote: My question is this: Whenever a xian talks about correct interpretation of Tanach Hebrew they get into all these voices and tenses such as the passive voice so did those things exist in ancient times or do they exist in higher Hebrew still? Of course Hebrew verbs have a passive voice − three of them, in fact. A Hebrew verb has three active paradigms: they are called פָּעַל PA'AL or "simple (active)", פִּעֵל PI'ÉL or "intensive (active)", and הִפְעִיל HIF'IL or "causative (active)"; and each of these has a corresponding passive נִפְעַל NIF'AL or "simple passive", פֻּעַל PU'AL or "intensive passive", and הֻפְעַל HUF'AL (sometimes הָפְעַל HOF'AL) or "causative passive". In addition to these, there is also a seventh paradigm, called הִתְפַּעֵל HITPA'ÉL, representing the verb's "reflexive" mood. Read the 9th verse of the Creation chapter in B'réshιt; it begins with the verb יִקָּווּ (a נִפְעַל NIF'AL form − it should be יִנְקָווּ, but Hebrew grammar disallows the prefix נ when the first root-letter of a verb is ק) "let them be collected" (the verb is plural "them" because the subject, הַמַּיִם "the water", is a plural noun in Hebrew). This is "passive voice", isn't it? http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Dannyil		#6	[-]
Posts: 61 (04/16/09 03:32:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	meira750 wrote: my husband and I made aliyah in 1988 and managed to learn a fair amount of modern Hebrew. We learned that there are 3 basic tenses; past, present and future, nothing about voices or the more complex tenses found in European languages. Admittedly, this Hebrew we were taught was to get us out into society and functioning. My question is this: Whenever a xian talks about correct interpretation of Tanach Hebrew they get into all these voices and tenses such as the passive voice so did those things exist in ancient times or do they exist in higher Hebrew still? I've never heard a rabbi go in this direction when teaching on the meaning of verses. Modern scholarship in Xian circles is divided whether or not there are actual tenses or 'moods'. Scholarship calls "Regular 'Past' tense" the Perfect form, and the Regular Future tense 'Imperfect form'. Modern Hebrew has tended to conflate forms found in the Biblical Hebrew, to make things simpler for Hebrew speakers. However, one need not necessarily see this as a disadvantage. A simple analysis as Prof Mordechai Tziyyon eloquently presented, shows that the forms can be easily applied and understood. Nonetheless, a simple analysis of the verbs and structure of the text, should in of itself tell you if this makes sense or not. If it doesn't the chances are the classical Jewish commentators have noticed the inconsistency and answer it. Take for example Bereishis 1:1 בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹקִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ. Bereishis Bara Elokim eis HaShamayim v'eis Haaretz. The word בְּרֵאשִׁית read as it stands makes little sense: "In the beginning of" The construct state, makes it very hard to translate this verse. A quick look at Rashi, tells us that 1. It is correct to use this in the construct state, and 2. the Part left out is hinting to a deeper message: That the world was created for the sake of Israel. Hope that helps a bit -D Deut 4:15, Deut 4:35-39, Num 23:19, Deut 24:16, Eze 37, Psa 119 - now go and read it...! Torah True Judaism

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Add Reply

Quick Reply

Messiah Truth Project Counter-Missionary Education