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Ras Eliah	Michael L. Brown,	Lead	[-]
Posts: 17 (05/11/07 20:18:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None Greetings and Hotep!(Peace) First off I would like to say this is my first post, so hello everyone and thank you for making it possible for me and others to come here and ask questions. It is a great service. Today was my first experience with Mr. Michael Brown, not personally, but in that I had never heard of him before. He is extremly impressive and very well spoken and you can tell that he has put in serious work and isn't riding in on someone elses fumes. I have to say even as a non-christian that I find him to be very refreshing. I know that many of us who are in counter missionary are tired of constantly stepping in a pile of "Josh McDowell" and having to clean it from the bottom of our shoes. What I mean is, Michael Brown is not an idiot, and it seems like he can sow his oats. I listened to his debate with Tovia Singer today and there were several issues Tovia couldn't respond to. As much as I respect Rabbi Singer, he seems to be lacking in a lot of important areas. However there is a Prof. Uri Yosef, who I learned about through this website, and his papers are so amazing. He is in my opinion, a Christian Missionaries worst nightmare, or Christianity period. I am wondering if he has ever made attempt to do live debate or rebuttal of any type with Michael Brown. I have to admit, after reading through MR. Browns website, and hearing him debate, he is the best Missionary that ever existed. I have delt with so many missionaries and Jamieson, McDowell, Micheal Henry.... and non of them ever even made me blink. But old Mr. Brown could be a toughy. Please give your thoughts,
UriYosef	Re: Michael L. Brown,	#1	[-]
Posts: 4338 (05/12/07 20:28:48) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ras Eliah - *Quote:* However there is a Prof. Uri Yosef, who I learned about through this website, and his papers are so amazing. He is in my opinion, a Christian Missionaries worst nightmare, or Christianity period. I am wondering if he has ever made attempt to do live debate or rebuttal of any type with Michael Brown. Thank you for the nice compliments. I have met Dr. Brown in person. He is a very learned person, a very good public speaker with excellent stage presence. He and I have spoken face-to-face, and he actually wondered if I would be interested in a "one-on-one" with him, which I understood to be an invitation to a debate. I politely told him that I generally do not engage in debates on the Hebrew Bible because I will not debate on translated texts. In other words, I would consider holding a debate in Hebrew on the Hebrew text. There was no direct response to this by him other than just say that he would like to meet me sometime over a cup of coffee to chat. I've had several challenges to debate Christian missionaries in the past. I held one such "moderated" debate in an audio/text chat-room on a certain service, and this is the reason I will not do any more of these. The gentleman and I were not debating the same text. He was using the King James Bible, and I was using the Hebrew Bible. UriYosef
Sophiee1	Re: Michael L. Brown,	#2	[-]
Posts: 12907 (05/13/07 10:36:34) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	You might be interested in the Michael Brown section at Kosher Judaism. Michael Brown and Jewish Objections to His Books. He is impressive, but when his "facts" are checked out they don't stand up to scruitiny. He "borrows" from many missionaries before him -- and doesn't check to see if they got their facts straight. The thing I've noticed the most about Dr. Brown's work is how often he relies on unreliable sources. He quoted Ibn Crispin from a 19th century Xian apologetic book without ever researching who Ibn Crispin was or what he really said. He just relied on the earlier Xian apologetic as being accurate. He does this type of thing time and time again in his books. I actually found a Xian site that claims Dr. Brown takes things out of context: *Quote:* DISREGARD FOR THE CONTEXT OF SCRIPTURE Brown has a way of turning Scripture on its head. He takes a perspective and then makes the Bible conform to it. A few examples will suffice. The first example is his appeal to a passage in Ezekiel, which he rips out of its clear context. Ezekiel 47:9 is clearly a millennial/Kingdom passage having to do with the twelve tribes of Israel (see vv. 13, 21-22). Surely, Brown believes in a future Kingdom restoration for Israel. Or does he? The passage, where the river flows everything will live, is applied by Brown to this river of revival in Pensacola. He says the critic refuses to get in. . . . Brown even goes so far as to support shaking uncontrollably from passages in Isaiah 21, Jeremiah 4 and 23, and Ezekiel 12.63 By use of these verses, Brown again shows his disregard for the context of Scripture. It is clear that these passages have to do with G-ds catastrophic judgments on the wicked. So much for discernment and proper exegesis. Scripture is wrenched to justify holy spasms and sanctified epilepsy in worship services.. . . etc. Dr. Brown appears to rely heavily on indirect sources -- without checking to see if they got their facts straight. Above I mentioned Ibn Crispin from the 19th century apologetic book on Isaiah 53. Drashi at Kosher Judaism has shown that Dr. Brown also relied on another source without verifying whether or not it was accurate. Drashi found that Dr. Brown used the source Chazak (a Xian site). From KJ here are pastes of some posts: *Quote:* Drashi: Just to correct some points... slojodan wrote: Hey Guys, I saw these verses from the Midrash in Dr. Brown's book and on a missionary site. Can anyone explain them? ..snip . . . i.e (Pesikta Rabbati 36:2). Drashi: As I said before, this is really quoting 36:3. Brown admits that he relied on the text at the "Chazak" messianic site which supposedly copied these from "Pesikta Rabbati: Homiletical Discourses for Festal Days and Special Sabbaths" by William G. Braude. I am not sure why certain liberties with the text were taken. At least we know how Brown gets his work done quickly! slojodan wrote: Pesikta Rabbati 37:137 Drashi: His book (Answering Jewish Objections, vol 3, 4:24) has it listed as 37:1, to that's a typo. And the text is lengthy and is joined with a few others, and speaks of the author's point of view that the false and fallen Moshiach ben Yosef will be redeemed as well and come to terms with the fact that he was wrong. Mart asks: Are the last words, "At these words, the Messiah will reply: 'Now I am reconciled. The servant is content to be like his Master' " (Pesikta Rabbati 36:3). are these the words of Mashiach ben Efraim/Josef and not ben David's words? And if so, what does the Hebrew text say? "At these words, the Messiah will reply (oneh)", or does it say, "At these words, the Messiah will say (omer, medabber, or something else)"? To my opinion "say" or "speak" makes more sense than "reply". Drashi: It says neither. The very next line is: After the phrase *Quote:* "During the same week, Ephriam will say to the Holy one, Blessed be He: "You have already received my righteous messiah unto Yourself during the six days of creation, now Your distress is like my distress." You have the Chazak/Brown version ending with "At these words, the Messiah will reply: 'Now I am reconciled. The servant is content to be like his Master'" But here is the actual next line... *Quote:* [HaShem responds] "Since the day that the evil Nebbuchanezzer came forth and he destroyed My house and burnt my palace and exiled My children..." (etc.) In fact, there are three mose sentences that he doesn't translate that is between "your distress is now like my distress" and your sentence in question!!!!!!! Three missing sentences. You can cause a lot of inferring by dropping three sentences! And you are right, it says "say" (amar) and not "answer", and in the context of the other three sentences, it changes the flavor. Here is all of the missing text: *Quote:* () [] , (" ' '), And here is the sentence you asked about: *Quote:* . "During that same time [of discussing why things happened as they did], he (Ephriam) will say before the Master of the Universe", "Now I am settled/reconciled [on these things, for] I will know that it is enough for the servant to be like his Rav ("master"). Here is their version: *Quote:* CHazak wrote: At these words, the Messiah will reply: "Now I am reconciled. The servant is content to be like his Master Pretty slimy, on the part of Chazak, huh? And Brown used it without checking it. And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Genesis, 21:12
DanFTL	Re: Michael L. Brown,	#3	[-]
Posts: 119 (05/13/07 17:56:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Wow, I kept wondering if that post would keep biting me in the ***. In his defense, under Slojodan, I reposted a translation but it wasn't necessarily the one Dr. Brown used in his book. I didn't think it was a big deal at the time but apparently it was sloppy of me. I guess we all need to check our sources when posting something, including Uri and I. --Dan
Ras Eliah	Re: Michael L. Brown,	#4	[-]
Posts: 17 (05/13/07 21:27:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hotep! Uri Yosef, your very welcome for the compliments, you've certainly worked and studied very hard to produce the type of essays you do. Also I read that you have a Ph.d in physics? You've been a busy man. And Sophiee you as well have been impressive in your display of Biblical Scriptures. I thank you as well for contributing you hard work and study. I'm trying to become more familiar with Hebrew Scriptures and Prof. Uri Yosef's essays have really brought me far as well as other sources like Rabbi Micheal Skobac (spelling??). I grew up as a Christian, Roman Catholic non the less. From day one that blond blue eyed Jesus was portrayed to me as God. I was very secular about it most of my teen years, kinda only believing it because it was all I knew. I grew up with the usual story, "The Jews rejected their Messiah because they were stiff necked, even though He fulfilled the prophecies." But I one day realized that my parents had never brought me before a Rabbi and said to me, "Here son, sit down and listen to this load of crap and then you'll know why Jesus really is the Messiah." As a matter of fact, the Christian background I come from, they make it sound like Jesus was the only person the Jews ever rejected as a false messiah. They don't mention all the others who were also not accepted. Guess it would be better for them not to investigate that far. Shem Hotep! (I go in peace)
Sophiee1	Re: Michael L. Brown,	#5	[-]
Posts: 12907 (05/14/07 18:48:08) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Interesting, isn't it? My experience with apostate Jews (like Michael Brown) is that they were not educated and turned to Xianity out of emotional need. The fault isn't with Xianity, or Xians or even themselves. The problem lies when the truth is shown to them (not just someone's opinon mind you but clear facts) and they continue to ignore it because of that emotional umbilical cord -- or perhaps the financial one. I don't blame Xians for believing what they are taught -- any more than I blame Bddhists or any other religion. I do find it interesting that they don't seek to question anything -- but that, too, is taught. We're here with our little light. We don't know everything but we do try to answer questions when asked -- and when we don't know the answer we'll say so -- and try to find the answer. It is all about learning and growth. An d Torah. And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Genesis, 21:12
Ras Eliah	Michael L. Brown	#6	[-]
Posts: 17 (05/16/07 21:17:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hotep! Yes, after doing a little research or Mr. Brown and his past, I'm seeing a rebellious nature from day one. It would seem that he has more interest in oposing his Jewish roots then he is in presenting unbiased opinion. In my particular field of study, I am constantly making the effort to make sure that ones are proud of thier background and culture, and to never fall victim to surrendering to your conquerers religion and diety. It would seem that Dr. Brown has taken the religion and diety of his conquerer. Man know thyself... Shem Hotep!
DanFTL	Re: Michael L. Brown	#7	[-]
Posts: 119 (05/17/07 00:55:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	As far as Christian apologists go, they're not going to get any better than him so get used to it :-)
ZeevMichael	Re: Michael L. Brown	#8	[-]
Posts: 60 (10/16/07 09:51:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Dr. Brown has, according to other xtians, had a pretty cloudy past in xtian circles. His time spent with the Brownsville Assembly, and his involvement with the "Pensacola Outpouring" have been sharply criticized by evangelicals such as Hank Hanegraaf. Says Mr. Hanegraaf in his "Bible Answer Man" radio program of 8/7/1997: "unmasking all of the fabrications of spin-doctors like Michael Brown would be an endless project." Dr. Brown has also been accused of false prophecy - see this link for the entire article, which contained this paragraph: *Quote:* While speaking at that Jerusalem gathering, Michael Brown proceeded to tell the attendees that "tonight," that night, would be a "history making" night insomuch as the Holy Spirit would descend in power and fire as earth-shaking and monumental as the literal day of Pentecost detailed in Acts, chapter 2. On a video of this speech in the presence of Israeli Messianic leaders including such leading scholars as Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum who all witnessed the false prophetic predictions, Michael Brown went so far as to interpret the national disaster of forest fires destroying 20% of Israel's reforested land as emblematic of the outpouring.[Reported in the Moriel Newsletter Number 9; Jacob Prasch Ministry] Somewhere around 2am, when it became apparent nothing "earth shaking" was going to occur that evening, Brown's "prophecy" fizzled and he subsequently issued a letter of apology, attempting to claim that the reason nothing came of it was because several people in attendance were allegedly praying "against" his "prophesy". He would ultimately go on to admit that, in fact, he must not have been "in the Spirit" when he made the aforementioned proclamation. I've read all 4 books in Dr. Brown's "Answering Jewish Objections..." book series. He is argumentative at best, and I don't think he considers the implications for xtianity of some of his arguments.
UriYosef	Re: Michael L. Brown	#9	[-]
Posts: 4338 (10/16/07 22:39:11) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	ZeevMichael - In general, those who call themselves "Messianic Jews" straddle the fence - they want to "play" on both sides. The logical flaw with that game is that Christianity and Judaism are mutually exclusive sets of beliefs (see my essay on this topic). UriYosef
ZeevMichael	Re: Michael L. Brown	#10	[-]
Posts: 60 (10/17/07 04:47:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Prof. Uri, Agreed 100%. I must admit, to my shame, that I once stepped foot into a Messianic congregation at the invitation of a friend who was encouraging me to abandon this "dead" Jewish religion. What I saw floored me - people with their eyes closed babbling in weird gibberish, strange music, a "shabbat oneg" with shrimp salad, people giving money in envelopes with their names on it into a tsedaka box on Shabbat, a "rabbi" giving the HaMotzi with no post-meal benching in sight... The whole thing looked like Pentacostals playing Jewish dress-up - I even saw a guy who was wearing a knitted kippah with the Shema knitted into it. Problem was he didn't even know enough to realize he was wearing it inside-out, so that all the letters were backward. I even tried to reason with the cantor when I found out that his parents attended my shul (may HaShem bring them comfort). Obviously he wasn't having it - he said I needed to do less reading and take more by faith. When I asked if faith meant babbling in some nonsense language, he said "obviously you don't have the Holy Spirit, or you'd see how dead your Orthodox beliefs are". To Dr. Brown's credit, at least (in the times I've seen him) he doesn't try to play this little charade. Its like he's a misfit wherever he goes - rejected by the Jewish community as destroyed, rejected by fundamentalist xtianity as a pentacostal heretic, and rejected by Messianic communities since he speaks out sharply against the dress-up thing. If he didn't argue so well, I think he'd be fairly marginalized in xtianity as well. But he can argue, and his words are a salve to xtians seeking to soothe themselves over Jews rejecting their messiah. And so they love him and hold him up on a pedestal, overlooking his past so as not to "throw the baby out with the bath water". Oy, what I wouldn't give to be ringside at the "Dr. Brown versus Professor Uri" debate!
Sophiee1	Re: Michael L. Brown	#11	[-]
Posts: 12907 (10/17/07 08:50:05) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	He can't be that much of a misfit considering the wealth he as acquired being a messyanic minister. And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Genesis, 21:12
ZeevMichael	Re: Michael L. Brown	#12	[-]
Posts: 60 (10/17/07 18:36:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sophiee1 said: *Quote:* He can't be that much of a misfit considering the wealth he as acquired being a messyanic minister. LOL! You're not half kidding. His new "Countering the Counter-Missionaries" CD set is over $100. How come he doesn't provide it free of charge (ie. download) like R'Singer's series? Because folks will pay a lot of cash to be soothed.
Chaim ben Yaakov	Re: Michael L. Brown	#13	[-]
Posts: 3049 (11/11/07 10:39:28) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	One of Dr. Brown's charges is that Rabbis changed things after Jesus - especially with regard to atonement. Check out in the countermissionary forum where it can be shown that atonement - as Brown sees it in volume 2 - can be achieved without blood. Rabbis were teaching this centuries before Jesus, proving that there never was a Rabbinical conspiracy or that Rabbis changed everything due to the fall of the Temple. Here's the link. Enjoy. Rabbis created new atonement system....? Another of Dr. Brown's charges is that Isaiah 53 was re-interpreted to fit Israel due to Christianity. Rashi led the charge. This is proven false here: Did Rashi change Isaiah 53....? Once again Brown's claims are thwarted and proven absolutely false. A true "scholar" like him would acknowledge the facts and admit his error. Understand......it's Brown's belief that he and people like him follow the true Judaism. It is Brown's belief that Judaism changed due to Jesus and the 2nd Temple falling. He thinks he and his crew are continuing true Judaism. Here's a link about Jews never believing in the Trinity that Brown teaches Jews always believed. Trinity debunked here. ----------------- "He who saves one life... it is as if he saves an entire universe. He who destroys a life... it is as if he destroys an entire universe" TALMUD - Sanhedrin 4:5 -----------------
avivai		#14	[-]
Posts: 46 (05/19/08 01:16:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	In general, those who call themselves "Messianic Jews" straddle the fence - they want to "play" on both sides. The logical flaw with that game is that Christianity and Judaism are mutually exclusive sets of beliefs (see my essay on this topic). UriYosef i would like to 'cut and paste' some of this essay into a post to a messianic jew on another forum, but when i highlighted and then cliked 'edit' so i could copy, the 'copy' and 'paste' were not lighted up and i wasn't able to do it. can you tell me how i can do it (assuming that it's ok with you :)). it's a great essay. thanks, aviva
Sophiee1		#15	[-]
Posts: 10681 (05/19/08 08:32:44) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Please do get permission from Uri before copying his post. To copy it all you should have to do is highlight the text and hit "control" and "C" which copies the text. To paste it you hit "control" and "V". You might be interested in the Michael Brown section at Kosher Judaism. Michael Brown and Jewish Objections to His Books. Michael Brown was a self professed drug addict and thief who found Xianity as a confused teen ager. In other words he had very limited Jewish education -- and any education he has since acquired has all been from Xian sources. Dr. Brown kindly sent me all four of his books (autographed no less), and as one reads them it is easy to see that he uses earlier missionary sources that are questionable -- and many outright frauds. As a scholar he should check his sources. His use of Jewish sources is similar to so many Xians -- proof texting of taking things out of context. . . One of his flagrant misuse of a Jewish sage that distorts what the sage said completely is his quote of the Jewish sage Nachmanides (Ramban). (For those who don't know, Moshe ben Nachman, is known as Ramban, not to be confused wit Rambam). Here is what Dr. Brown claims Nachmanides (Ramban) says about the servant in Isaiah 53 -- *Quote:* While it is true that Rashi, Ibn Ezra and Radak all interpreted the passage with reference to Israel, other equally prominent leaders, such as Moses ben Nachman (called Nachmanides or the Ramban) felt compelled to follow the weight of ancient tradition and embrace the individual, Messianic interpretation of the Talmudic rabbis (found in the Midrash, despite his belief that the plain sense of the text supported the national interpretation) Note that Brown says Ramban "felt compelled" to follow the "weight of ancient tradition" that the servant in Isaiah 53 was the messiah. This is completely misleading to his readers. He never explains to the readers what "midrash" is and neither does he tell them what Nachmanides said about Isaiah 53's servant. Here is what Ramban said the to King of Spain: *Quote:* I am amazed. The words said in our presence to convince us that the Nazarene is the Messiah, were said by the Nazarene himself when he brought this same message to our ancestors and tried to persuade them. They refuted him to his face with a perfect and strong rejection despite the fact that it was he who spoke, who knew and could argue his claim that he is divine, in accordance to your opinion, better than you can today. Now, if our ancestors who saw him and knew him did not heed him, how then can we believe and heed the voice of the king, whose only knowledge of the matter stems merely from the hearsay of distant reporters who heard it from people who neither knew him nor were his countrymen as our ancestors knew him and witnessed his life. . . . Friar Paul claimed: "Behold the passage in Isaiah, chapter 53, tells of the death of the messiah and ho he was to fall into the hands of his enemies and how he was placed alongside the wicked, as happened to Jsus. Do you believe that this section speaks of the messiah? I said to him: In terms of the true meaning of the section, it speaks only of the people of Israel, which the prophets regularly call 'Israel My servant' or 'Jacob My servant. ' Friar Paul said: "I shall prove from the words of your sages that it speaks of the messiah." I said to him: "It is true that the rabbis in the aggadah explain it as referring to the messiah. So clearly Ramban says the servant in Isaiah 53 is Israel. The friar debating Ramban tried the trick on him that Brown insists on in HIS quote -- that using aggudah (or homily) the rabbis speak of the servant as possibly being the messiah, or Moses, or King David, or one of many others. Ramban explains clearly to the king that this is NOT the literal translation. Does Brown explain this to his readers? No, he does not. He leaves his readers with a very misleading and wrong impression of what the sage actually taught. This is what Ramban tried to explain to the King of Spain and Friar Paul back in the 12th century, and we are still trying to explain it today to those Xians who flood the internet with "rabbinical quotes" that they do not understand. Brown misleads his readers into thinking that Nachmanides saw the servant in Isaiah 53 as the messiah, even though Ramban clearly told the King of Spain that it is the nation of Israel! It is only in midrash that many others (including King David, Moses, etc.) are related also to the servant using drash. Unfortunately we don't know if Brown misleads his readers out of ignorance or out of an intent to deceive. That isn't our concern, either. Our concern is that he writes these books that many read and believe simply because they are not presented with the true facts. Ramban further makes it clear that even in drash there is no way Jsus could have fitted Isaiah's description of the servant: *Quote:* However, they never said that he (the messiah in midrash) would be killed ,at the hands of his enemies. For you will find in no book of the Jews, neither in the Talmud nor in the Midrash, that the messiah, the descendant of David, would be killed or would be turned over to his enemies or would be buried among the wicked. Indeed even the messiah whom you made for yourself was not buried. I shall explain for you this section properly and clearly, if you wish. There is no indication that the messiah would be killed, as happened to your messiah. They, however, did not wish to hear. And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Genesis, 21:12 Last Edited By: Sophiee1 05/19/08 08:54:01. Edited 1 times.
avivai		#16	[-]
Posts: 48 (05/19/08 12:53:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	yes, it works like that. ok, i'm waiting for permission from uri before copying to a post. :)
pxrnm		#17	[-]
Posts: 1 (09/05/08 00:18:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	UriYosef wrote: Ras Eliah - *Quote:* However there is a Prof. Uri Yosef, who I learned about through this website, and his papers are so amazing. He is in my opinion, a Christian Missionaries worst nightmare, or Christianity period. I am wondering if he has ever made attempt to do live debate or rebuttal of any type with Michael Brown. Thank you for the nice compliments. I have met Dr. Brown in person. He is a very learned person, a very good public speaker with excellent stage presence. He and I have spoken face-to-face, and he actually wondered if I would be interested in a "one-on-one" with him, which I understood to be an invitation to a debate. I politely told him that I generally do not engage in debates on the Hebrew Bible because I will not debate on translated texts. In other words, I would consider holding a debate in Hebrew on the Hebrew text. There was no direct response to this by him other than just say that he would like to meet me sometime over a cup of coffee to chat. I've had several challenges to debate Christian missionaries in the past. I held one such "moderated" debate in an audio/text chat-room on a certain service, and this is the reason I will not do any more of these. The gentleman and I were not debating the same text. He was using the King James Bible, and I was using the Hebrew Bible. UriYosef Hi Prof. Uri, just stumble about this forum re Michael L Brown. I've sent an email to ICN ministries re Uri's concern about debating not in Hebrew on the Hebrew text, and this following is the reply. RE: Contact Us From: Ministry (ICN) (ministry@icnministries.org) Medium riskYou may not know this sender.Mark as safe\|Mark as unsafe Sent: Friday, 5 September 2008 3:09:38 AM Reply-to: ministry@icnministries.org To: xxxxx@hotmail.com Hi Rere, Thank you for contacting us. Please let Uri know that Dr. Brown said: "I'm always open to do a public, live debate with Uri or any qualified Jewish representative. If he wants to do a Hebrew only debate, I have colleagues who would be delighted to do so in Israel, with no English translation of any kind, since that would benefit Israelis there. I will gladly help to set that up if Uri is open and willing. If Uri wanted to debate me publicly in the States, I would recommend that we agree to speak in English but then quote all material from the Hebrew Bible in Hebrew, not relying on English translations. The issue is not one of speaking modern Hebrew, which is not my native tongue and is not the language of the Bible, but of dealing accurately with the ancient, original, biblical Hebrew text. I believe Uri knows that I am happy to do this with him any time, and if he speaks Hebrew fluently then he must surely know how different modern Hebrew is from biblical Hebrew, which is why insisting on a debate in modern Hebrew makes little sense at all from an academic point of view. But, to repeat, I will gladly help to set up a debate with Uri in modern Hebrew with a Hebrew speaking Messianic Jewish colleague if he desires." Blessings, Eric McCoy Assistant to Dr. Michael Brown ICN Ministries 704-782-3760 -----Original Message----- From: xxxxx@hotmail.com [mailto:] Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 12:14 AM To: ministry@icnministries.org Subject: Contact Us On Wed Sep 3 05:13:37 2008, The following information was submitted. ----------------------------------------------------------------- name : Rere email : xxxxx@hotmail.com comments : Hi Michael, The following links goes to an anti-missionary forum which provides material by UriYosef http://messiahtruth.yuku.com/topic/866 He said (Quote) I have met Dr. Brown in person. He is a very learned person, a very good public speaker with excellent stage presence. He and I have spoken face-to-face, and he actually wondered if I would be interested in a "one-on-one" with him, which I understood to be an invitation to a debate. I politely told him that I generally do not engage in debates on the Hebrew Bible because I will not debate on translated texts. In other words, I would consider holding a debate in Hebrew on the Hebrew text. There was no direct response to this by him other than just say that he would like to meet me sometime over a cup of coffee to chat. (end Quote) ------------------------------------------ If he is as knowledgeable as some users of the forum claim he is, then I think this would be a great opportunity for Michael to do this debate. And by the way I love your zeal for the lost sheep of Israel. Cheers, Rere --------------------------------------------------------------------------- So there you go...., I believe you both have strong arguments from each side and I think by having this debate intellectually will benefit those who are interested in this topic from both side (to be fair of course). Looking forward if this can happen. Cheers, Rere
Sophiee1		#18	[-]
Posts: 11287 (09/05/08 10:49:55) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Biblical Hebrew isn't all that different from modern Hebrew. One who knows modern Hebrew can easily read the Torah. This is just more smoke and mirrors -- the answer is that he'll be happy to debate by CHANGING THE RULES -- which is not surprising. סופי And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
UriYosef		#19	[-]
Posts: 1630 (09/05/08 16:41:10) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The issue is not one of speaking modern Hebrew, which is not my native tongue and is not the language of the Bible, but of dealing accurately with the ancient, original, biblical Hebrew text. This is something I often hear from missionaries. It is a fallacious argument that has little basis in fact. The fact of the matter is that "Biblical Hebrew" is a "frozen" language in comparison to "Modern Hebrew". The vocabulary of "Biblical Hebrew" was sealed with the canonization of the Hebrew Bible, whereas "Modern Hebrew" is a living language with a growing vocabulary. The verbs in both "Biblical Hebrew" and "Modern Hebrew" are structured on seven stems (binyanim in Hebrew). All seven forms of verbs are found in the Hebrew Bible, as are the past, present, future, and imperative (command) forms of verbs. There are some differences in the usage of vocabulary, with "Biblical Hebrew" using some poetic forms and constructs, and some words that are no longer in common use in "Modern Hebrew", though these can be found in any good (modern) Hebrew dictionary. As Sophie pointed out, anyone who knows the "Modern Hebrew" language has no problems reading and understanding the Hebrew Bible (perhaps with the exception of those few chapters in the Book of Daniel and the Book of Ezra that are written in Aramaic). In his written works, lectures, and debates, Dr. Brown claims to know the Hebrew language. Why should he need a surrogate to hold a debate on passages from the Hebew Bible in Hebrew? UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
pxrnm		#20	[-]
Posts: 2 (09/11/08 23:43:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sophiee1 wrote: Biblical Hebrew isn't all that different from modern Hebrew. One who knows modern Hebrew can easily read the Torah. This is just more smoke and mirrors -- the answer is that he'll be happy to debate by CHANGING THE RULES -- which is not surprising. Sophie, Considering Prof. Uri seems very proficient with English anyway I can't see why he doesn't want to do the debate. Anyway I've contacted the ICN ministries again, and I think this will be the last reply from Michael Brown : Dear Rere, I apologize for telling you to post Dr. Brown's last comment, but it was actually not meant to be posted and was for your sake only. Dr. Brown does not want to get in the middle of a discussion online. There are thousands of posts dealing with his material, but he doesn't get involved with them and certainly can't go back and forth here. He did say however that you can post this one thing: If Uri would like to have a public debate with me in English using the Hebrew Bible only, wonderful, let's set it up. If he would like to have a public debate with a Messianic Jew in Hebrew, wonderful, let him say so officially and I will get him a fluent Hebrew speaker who will gladly debate him. God bless, Eric McCoy Assistant to Dr. Michael Brown ICN Ministries 704-782-3760

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